If It Weren't For....

[Camper]

Thank you for that bit of honesty.

20 to 30 mintues tops, IF it was eaten alone. ETOD is 1 a.m.? Then she ate 'round 'bout midnight.

-------------I think she ate it when she got home or shortly after. Digestion table for fruits at this link. http://www.unani.com/digestion_time_of_foods.htm
Pineapple 2 1/4 hours.

HOW SAD to think of her life snuffed out for WHAT reason, jealousy and anger by Burke, OR hiding sexual abuse by an in family member, OR a drunken older son, OR WHO? Not too many choices here are there?

I am frequently reminded of Marilyn Van Derburs father, is that another choice for the Ramseys?

Whoever did 'IT' is suffering from their own internal MENTAL prison.



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[Zman]

Whenever I think of the JBR case and all its angles, I am reminded of an old Sesame Steet Game. One of these things just doesn't belong here. Pineapple, Footprint, Broken window in the basement, suitcase by the window, garotte and so on. One or more of these things is just getting in the way of the truth. Of course the problem is which one?

 

[TressaRing28]

Stuff it, prune.

Poor Brother,you should add prune's to your diet. Consitipation does make you fussy and your response to posts lately have been the 's :bang:

Please quite stuffing it ---- I fear your going to overload your *


Thanks for trying,

Back to topic


Patsy wrote the note but, didn't kill JonBenet.

Tressa

 

[BlueCrab]

-------------I think she ate it when she got home or shortly after. Digestion table for fruits at this link. http://www.unani.com/digestion_time_of_foods.htm
Pineapple 2 1/4 hours.

Camper,

That link causes my computer to lock up. Twizzler printed out the text for me, but it's still unclear what it said. The 2 1/4 hours for the digestion of pineapple is probably from ingestion to defecation -- not from ingestion to the small intestine (where the pineapple was found in JonBenet).

Fruit digests quickly so long as it's not blocked by slower digesting food that was eaten immediately ahead of it. The digestion system of JonBenet had only the pineapple in the proximate (beginning) part of the small intestine and the cracked crab dinner in the large intestine (end of the digestion system). Pineapple is very acidic and therefore is one of the slowest of digesting fruits. And since it was eaten by itself, without any other kind of food, I arbitrarily estimate that the pineapple found in the upper part of JonBenet's small intestine had been eaten 60 to 90 minutes prior to her death.

(BrotherMoon forced me into researching the digestion rate of fresh pineapple, eaten by itself, in more detail, and the revised 60-to-90-minute estimate is what I came up with for the pineapple to pass from the mouth to somewhere at the beginning of the small intestine. My original estimate was 1 1/2 to 2 hours.)

JMO

 

[Camper]

Camper,

That link causes my computer to lock up. Twizzler printed out the text for me, but it's still unclear what it said. The 2 1/4 hours for the digestion of pineapple is probably from ingestion to defecation -- not from ingestion to the small intestine (where the pineapple was found in JonBenet).

Fruit digests quickly so long as it's not blocked by slower digesting food that was eaten immediately ahead of it. The digestion system of JonBenet had only the pineapple in the proximate (beginning) part of the small intestine and the cracked crab dinner in the large intestine (end of the digestion system). Pineapple is very acidic and therefore is one of the slowest of digesting fruits. And since it was eaten by itself, without any other kind of food, I arbitrarily estimate that the pineapple found in the upper part of JonBenet's small intestine had been eaten 60 to 90 minutes prior to her death.

(BrotherMoon forced me into researching the digestion rate of fresh pineapple, eaten by itself, in more detail, and the revised 60-to-90-minute estimate is what I came up with for the pineapple to pass from the mouth to somewhere at the beginning of the small intestine. My original estimate was 1 1/2 to 2 hours.)

JMO

=================<><BlueCrab, I concur. The real trick questions here are WHO put the pineapple in the bowl; WHEN did they do it; WHEN was it put into the fridge - if ever; and WHO got the bowl out of the fridge IF IF it was ever put into the fridge.

It would have been great IF IF the PD had asked Burke what his favorite fruit was, and what JBR's was, and did he have some pineapple on Christmas. Most likely pineapple was NOT discussed with Burke by the Ramseys IF IF they prompted him before hand on what NOT to say about THAT night.

I wonder exactly what Fleet White actually knows about what happened that night? It has been quiet from Fleet's corner for quite a while now.

Yes lots of puzzle pieces but no one has put them all together YET.




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[Fran Bancroft]

Brother Moon,

I've got to thank you for keeping this lively. It's great to have the comedic relief considering the horror and sadness of the topic.

Prunes, eh? hehehe Makes me laugh just imagining you saying that in real life to such fine women. hehehe

 

[sissi]

While she was being tormented she vomited her stomach contents, leaving only the pineapple that was hours into digestion in her upper intestine.
I don't remember who suggested this, however it makes sense. IMO

 

[BlueCrab]

It would have been great IF the PD had asked Burke what his favorite fruit was, and what JBR's was, and did he have some pineapple on Christmas.

Camper,

Burke also liked to eat pineapple. But Patsy said in the interviews that if Burke came downstairs to get something to eat, it would have likely been something chocolate.

JMO

 

[BrotherMoon]

Yes lots of puzzle pieces but no one has put them all together YET.

I have.

 

[BrotherMoon]

Brother Moon,

I've got to thank you for keeping this lively. It's great to have the comedic relief considering the horror and sadness of the topic.

Prunes, eh? hehehe Makes me laugh just imagining you saying that in real life to such fine women. hehehe

Ann Bancroft rocks, you don't.

Thanks for acknowledging the dark humor though. But the comedy comes from respect for the horror and sadness, not in spite of it.

Fine women, oxymoron, yes?

 

[Camper]

Camper,

Burke also liked to eat pineapple. But Patsy said in the interviews that if Burke came downstairs to get something to eat, it would have likely been something chocolate.

JMO

---<><BlueCrab, thanks for that little tidbit from an interview.

IF IF the bowl were already out, WHEN did Burke get his fingerprints on the bowl? OR IF IF the pineapple were prepped at some other time Christmas Day or Christmas Eve or ?. Did Burke put the bowl in the refrigerator just after it was prepped, hence his print on the bowl. OR when did Burke get the bowl out hence his print on the bowl.

My thought wanders to perhaps Burke took the bowl out sometime before the R's left for the Whites party. Dinner late in the day, could have stimulated Burkes need for something before they left for the party. Then my thought about a young boy NOT putting something away, holds pretty well.

OR IF IF Burke dallied after working on model with dad, and got it out BEFORE he went to bed and did not put it away, hmmm.

OR hungry little boy whining for something to eat, -I like this scenario best, because WHY would a mother cut up an entire pineapple the night before leaving on vacation, and leaving the pineapple to wither away in the fridge, unless Burke whined for food BEFORE the party?- Patsy tells Burke to get a bowl, Patsy preps pineapple, Patsy touches bowl for the first time when she places it on the table for Burke and tells Burke to put bowl away when he is finished, Patsy leaves the scene, Burke eats the pineapple and puts the bowl away.

THEN someone else gets the bowl out later - this would perhaps be the family perp BUT not so UNLESS LE missed the perps prints and WHY would a real perp get pineapple out of the refrigerator? ALSO IF IF a real perp fed JonBenet pineapple - assuming the real perp came at midnight, the pineapple would not have been so digested as it was found to be. WE also do not know if Patsy or Burke prepped the tea to eat with the pineapple, a poor dietary combination in my book, sounds like a boy thing to me.

BlueCrab IF IF your scenario about other boys being involved, WHY did they not have a snack too - Hmmm, I do recall the friends that were called over the morning of the FOUND Ransom Note were tidying up the kitchen washing dishes etc. Did the 'friends' wash the other boys dishes too, or did they all eat with their fingers right out of the bowl, yuk, hmmm. [color]

BlueCrab, as I recall the ONLY prints found were PR's and Burkes, did LE do the entire bowl test for other prints or maybe missed some?

I personally like hungry little Burke getting it out BEFORE they left for White's party that night IF IF IF it was prepped beforehand and put right into the refrigerator - and then he did not put it away. WHY would Patsy prep an entire pineapple for no particular reason IF IF IF no one was going to eat it then and there and they were leaving the next day?

I also like the thought that JonBenet could have innocently come along while still up THAT NIGHT, peeking into the refrigerator and dipping her fingers in the pineapple and having some, WITHOUT taking the bowl out of the refrigerator. Therefore with 'honesty' from the R's they did not know she ate any pineapple. Insert tooth fairy comment here.

BrotherMoon, were you really tidy when you were a little boy? What is your perfect thought about when the pineapple appeared? You say you have put the puzzle pieces together, when do you think the pineapple was actually put out on the table and WHO put it there?

Seems like I recall LE finding the outside layers of the prepped pineapple in the trash. IF IF so, then the description of those pieces would tell WHO prepped it. It would show the method of cutting, whether by an experienced adult or a hungry boy. By way of how much pineapple was wasted in the cutting of the outside layers. A childs goal in cutting the layers away would be to get at the meat of the pineapple, a mothers goal would be conservative in keeping more of the fruit in the process.

Hmmm.

So in conclusion I believe, and in so doing realize I do not have all of the facts, that JonBenet had some pineapple and went to bed, and was roused around midnight for potty chores by her mother, and then hmmm!!!



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[BlueCrab]

Camper,

It was fresh pineapple, but Patsy bought it at Safeway already prepared, as she normally did. Safeway does all the cutting, and then they display it in plastic containers for purchase.

The tiny white bowl found on the breakfast room table that contained the pineapple had been taken from the upper kitchen cabinet that JonBenet couldn't reach but which Burke could reach. Patsy uses the little bowls for salsa and things like that. The pineapple had obviously been dished out of the Safeway plastic container in the refrigerator and into the tiny bowl using the giant oversized serving spoon that was still sticking out of the little bowl of pineapple (an obvious child behavior).

Pineapple is one of JonBenet's favorite treats, and Burke is the resident tea drinker. The bowl of pineapple was at JonBenet's normal seating place at the table and the glass with a spent tea bag in it was at Burke's normal seating place at the table. Only Burke's and Patsy's fingerprints were on the bowl, so it's clear to me that the kids had snuck downstairs in the middle of the night after the parents had gone to bed and Burke had served up the pineapple to JonBenet. JonBenet was dead approximately 60 to 90 minutes later.

JMO

 

[Camper]

Camper,

It was fresh pineapple, but Patsy bought it at Safeway already prepared, as she normally did. Safeway does all the cutting, and then they display it in plastic containers for purchase.

The tiny white bowl found on the breakfast room table that contained the pineapple had been taken from the upper kitchen cabinet that JonBenet couldn't reach but which Burke could reach. Patsy uses the little bowls for salsa and things like that. The pineapple had obviously been dished out of the Safeway plastic container in the refrigerator and into the tiny bowl using the giant oversized serving spoon that was still sticking out of the little bowl of pineapple (an obvious child behavior).

Pineapple is one of JonBenet's favorite treats, and Burke is the resident tea drinker. The bowl of pineapple was at JonBenet's normal seating place at the table and the glass with a spent tea bag in it was at Burke's normal seating place at the table. Only Burke's and Patsy's fingerprints were on the bowl, so it's clear to me that the kids had snuck downstairs in the middle of the night after the parents had gone to bed and Burke had served up the pineapple to JonBenet. JonBenet was dead approximately 60 to 90 minutes later.

JMO

---------<><Thanks BlueCrab, now IF IF I were Brother Moon I would ask for sources for all of the cracks that you filled in, but I won't - so much time has passed.

Now then with your explanation of the pineapple, how do 'the other boy or boys' fit into your scenario about their involvement in the murder? How does or would a stun gun fit into this same puzzle? Whose gun would it have been, a perp who came off the street with a stun gun, yet brought no pen and paper with him/her upon which to write the ransom note?



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[twizzler333]

Someone mentioned this above or asked.....I would really like to know exactly what BrotherMoon thinks the events of the day were. We already know why he thinks Patsy did this but, how do you think it happened? Let us know also how this fits in or does not fit in with the clues we all have discussed here before. That might be "more convincing" to us if you showed more of a basis for your theory or gave more details on how you think this happened, other than just the reasons you think she did it. Because the reasons you believe are really just strange to some of us, so this may just enlighten us a bit.

 

[BlueCrab]

Thanks BlueCrab, now IF I were Brother Moon I would ask for sources for all of the cracks that you filled in, but I won't - so much time has passed.

Camper,

I don't mind providing sources, even though I've done it several times before. Some posters are new and others have forgotten the details. I'll guess at which sources you are looking for (I've abbreviated the Q's and A's somewhat from the interviews):

TRIP DEMUTH: "What would you use these bowls for?"

PATSY: "I think I got those little bowls for for like salsa ..."

TOM HANEY: "Those bowls, you described them being on the cabinet or a shelf, and you demonstrated it was higher. Is that something JonBenet could have reached?"

PATSY: "No."

TOM HANEY: "Do you stock pineapple in the house?"

PATSY: "I bought pineapple, it was fresh pineapple that had been peeled, cored and cut up. It was sealed there in the produce area. Safeway is usually where I buy it."

TOM HANEY: If Burke got up in the middle of the night would he eat something like that?"

PATSY: "No. He would eat something chocolate."

TOM HANEY: "Could he reach the bowl?"

PATSY: "He could reach the bowl."

TOM HANEY: "Do you drink hot tea?"

PATSY: "No."

TOM HANEY: "Iced tea?"

PATSY: "Yes, mostly in the summer."

TOM HANEY: "Anybody else in the house drink any tea?"

PATSY: "Burke drinks iced tea in the summer time."

TOM HANEY: "Where would the water glass normally be kept?"

PATSY: "Up in the cabinets over the sink."

TOM HANEY: "Again, something that JonBenet couldn't reach on her own?"

PATSY: "No."

TOM HANEY: "Had JonBenet and Burke been up in the night, would Burke have maybe fixed that for her knowing she wanted something like that?"

PATSY: "I don't know. That is stretching it."

TOM HANEY: "Could it have happened?"

PATSY: "Anything could have happened."

JMO

 

[BrotherMoon]

Someone mentioned this above or asked.....I would really like to know exactly what BrotherMoon thinks the events of the day were. We already know why he thinks Patsy did this but, how do you think it happened? Let us know also how this fits in or does not fit in with the clues we all have discussed here before. That might be "more convincing" to us if you showed more of a basis for your theory or gave more details on how you think this happened, other than just the reasons you think she did it. Because the reasons you believe are really just strange to some of us, so this may just enlighten us a bit.

The estimated time of death is not certain. The time of eating of the pineapple is not certain. But the window for the events is from 10 p.m. to 1 a.m.

I say Patsy did it alone, so John and Burke had to have time to go to bed and be sound asleep. From reports of clothing and behavior it looks like Patsy was up all night and John wasn't. This, to me, separates them.

I think it's more than coincindence that pineapple shows up in TPOMJB as being equivalent with happiness and JB said she didn't feel pretty.

I think it's more than coincidence that Patsy re-wrote the soliloquey from TPOMJB and titled it "Deadline."

The use of numbers and dates in the rn shows anxiety about thresholds of transformation.

Sandy Stranger, in TPOMJB, writes a psychological treatise titled "The Transfiguration of the Commonplace."

The Psalms is metioned repeatedly in the case, DOI and TPOMJB.

119:62 At midnight I rise to give you thanks.

All of this is not coincidence.

John and Burke went to bed.

The pineapple was fed to JB by Patsy or eaten by JB on her request.

JB went to sleep.

Patsy roused her near midnight, allready dissociated, lured her to the basement or carried her, strangled her, covered her head and hit her. She then posed the body to complete the fantasy.

The rn was likely written after the death and posing but may have been written before the posing. It may even have been written before the death.

I think the rn is a veiled directive to Patsy's God for it's part in a resurrection.

 

[Camper]

BlueCrab Thank you.

Brother Moon, and the motive for Patsy killing JonBenet is WHAT?

1. Patsy is and was as nutty as a Christmas Fruitcake.
2. To cover and hide sexual abuse by Patsy or a member of her family.

3. OR?



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[BrotherMoon]

BlueCrab Thank you.

Brother Moon, and the motive for Patsy killing JonBenet is WHAT?

1. Patsy is and was as nutty as a Christmas Fruitcake.
2. To cover and hide sexual abuse by Patsy or a member of her family.

3. OR?



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You can take what she now says about JB and work backwards. JB is an angel in heaven with God awaiting her mother's arrival. Patsy still lives through her daughter, largely in fantasy.

Actually, the question "what is the motive for the killing?" is the wrong question. The right question is "what is the motive for one person to use another?"

I say the death of JB was just one part of a long process known as a psychotic fantasy. Patsy probably began using JonBenet from the time she found out she was pregnant with a female. Her very name is an example: John Benet Patricia. Patsy debated using another name but concluded "what does that have to do with ME?" To me the name implies a symbolic expression of connection between Patsy and John. This is clever and in itself is not pathological but the repeated bypassing of JonBenet's identity in favor of symbolic expression of Patsy's inner workings, over time became pathological. Little by little Patsy's use of JonBenet increased until she felt she could use her for at will. In a deepening psychosis morality is lost. Patsy's use of JB then became unchecked, instinctual, compulsive and ultimately part of her regressive dream life having to do with her adolescence.

The motive is in the dream, the fantasy.

 

[londonPI]

bluecrab ...

i have been reading your posts for over a year on the JBR case. i have come to believe (maybe you've stated it and i missed it) that you work in law enforcement, possibly a detective? regardless of that, i so enjoy what you bring to this forum - i was always a believe in the mother did it theory, but you have certainly provoked a change in my thought process.

 

[Camper]

Brother Moon, I have taken a sabbatical for the past two plus years here on JonBenets forum, caring for my dying husband.

You posted this tidbit that intriqued me a lot. " In a deepening psychosis morality is lost. Patsy's use of JB then became unchecked, instinctual, compulsive and ultimately part of her regressive dream life having to do with her adolescence.

The motive is in the dream, the fantasy."

You have indeed bypassed any expertise regarding the human mind that I might have - which is none and have been left by the side of the road just reading here.

In your analysis, do you feel this fantasy began because of sexual abuse of Patsy when she was little as a way for her to escape reality?


LondonPI, if if you like BlueCrabs theory you might like mine as well. John Jr. is still at the top of my list.

BlueCrab, why do you think John Sr. hired lawyers for all the family in Georgia?

LondonPI, Georgia is where I surmise that John Jr. was taken from Boulder in Johns plane on THAT NIGHT, and the reason the plane was not prepped for early departure on the morning of December 26. My theory is quite long, I have given the shortened version here for you.

I am still quite fond of my theory.
The Ramsey family quite covered their behinds, and covered the bases with their behaviors.

This of course is my opinion based on known information obtained through media reports about the murder of JonBenet.



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