If the phone records from that night magically disappeared, who do you think the Ramseys were speaking to? How much detail did they share to get help.

ispywithmylittleeye

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2024
Messages
482
Reaction score
1,796
  • #1
I think they had legal help with how to obscure the crime scene so no one person could be accused. How did that conversation go? Think about what that would look like with each potential suspect. My thought is what scenario would garner the most sympathy to get as much cooperation as they got.
 
  • #2
I think they had legal help with how to obscure the crime scene so no one person could be accused. How did that conversation go? Think about what that would look like with each potential suspect. My thought is what scenario would garner the most sympathy to get as much cooperation as they got.
I agree.

The Ramsey cell phone records were allegedly illegally obtained by James Rapp, who also managed to obtain copies of credit card records. Denver radio host Peter Boyles claimed on one of his shows to have seen the phone records and again allegedly, those records showed 3 phone calls prior to the 911 call. According to Boyles, one call was to attorney Mike Bynum, one was to Dr. Beuf and the 3rd was to an unidentified number.

As the story goes, those records were confiscated by police and remain sealed, unable to be used because they were obtained illegally. And of course DA Alex Hunter refused to sign off on BPD's subpoena for the phone records. After a year had gone by, Steve Thomas claims that it was suggested by the DA's office that the police just politely ask Team Ramsey for the records. They finally did turn over some records, but not all. A claim was made that JR's cell phone had been mysteriously lost just prior to the murder.
 
  • #3
I agree.

The Ramsey cell phone records were allegedly illegally obtained by James Rapp, who also managed to obtain copies of credit card records. Denver radio host Peter Boyles claimed on one of his shows to have seen the phone records and again allegedly, those records showed 3 phone calls prior to the 911 call. According to Boyles, one call was to attorney Mike Bynum, one was to Dr. Beuf and the 3rd was to an unidentified number.

As the story goes, those records were confiscated by police and remain sealed, unable to be used because they were obtained illegally. And of course DA Alex Hunter refused to sign off on BPD's subpoena for the phone records. After a year had gone by, Steve Thomas claims that it was suggested by the DA's office that the police just politely ask Team Ramsey for the records. They finally did turn over some records, but not all. A claim was made that JR's cell phone had been mysteriously lost just prior to the murder.
Oh boy Clouded Truth, you just set my little brain into overdrive . The attorney, I expected. I did not know about the call to Dr Beuf.
That call raises a million questions. Was she alive or already deceased when that call was made?. Was it regarding JB or a traumatized sibling who just did the unthinkable. What did they need from Dr Beuf, given different scenarios which each player? And the unidentified call, who pray tell....
 
  • #4
Oh boy Clouded Truth, you just set my little brain into overdrive . The attorney, I expected. I did not know about the call to Dr Beuf.
That call raises a million questions. Was she alive or already deceased when that call was made?. Was it regarding JB or a traumatized sibling who just did the unthinkable. What did they need from Dr Beuf, given different scenarios which each player? And the unidentified call, who pray tell....
Sorry about that ispywithmylittleeye!

I will stress that as far as I am aware, there is only the one source for this information, and that is Peter Boyles. To my knowledge, James Rapp has never commented on it. I would love it if someone could confirm this information. I too suspected that Bynum (or another legal source, but I have always guessed that it was Bynum) was contacted.. Dr. Beuf was a surprise to me too. Would also love to know who the 3rd call went to.

I can't recall if Boyles discussed the times the calls were made. But if they really did call Dr. Beuf, I wonder if it was for to ask if he thought the blow to the head was survivable? We can only guess of course, but these calls make sense to me in that I can believe that they happened and are for real. But it sure would be nice to have a confirmation!
 
  • #5
Sorry about that ispywithmylittleeye!

I will stress that as far as I am aware, there is only the one source for this information, and that is Peter Boyles. To my knowledge, James Rapp has never commented on it. I would love it if someone could confirm this information. I too suspected that Bynum (or another legal source, but I have always guessed that it was Bynum) was contacted.. Dr. Beuf was a surprise to me too. Would also love to know who the 3rd call went to.

I can't recall if Boyles discussed the times the calls were made. But if they really did call Dr. Beuf, I wonder if it was for to ask if he thought the blow to the head was survivable? We can only guess of course, but these calls make sense to me in that I can believe that they happened and are for real. But it sure would be nice to have a confirmation!
All of the above in your post raises questions. The time in which they were made of course being critical. ANY calls made to Dr. Beuf put him directly in the middle of a cover up. Again, I ask, what did these conversations look like. There's been an accident ( insert name) we need help. What do we do?
These are the important calls that the world should have heard not PRs theatrics.
For caller #3, I'll add to Bynum, the pilot and BRs psychiatrist.
I'm torn with the Ramseys calling Beuf to advise on severity of injury as I don't think he really could make an informed decision over the phone unless there was no pulse, no heartbeat for any length of time. Even if they informed him of the blow to the head, how could he medically evaluate?
So many questions!
 
  • #6
All of the above in your post raises questions. The time in which they were made of course being critical. ANY calls made to Dr. Beuf put him directly in the middle of a cover up. Again, I ask, what did these conversations look like. There's been an accident ( insert name) we need help. What do we do?
These are the important calls that the world should have heard not PRs theatrics.
For caller #3, I'll add to Bynum, the pilot and BRs psychiatrist.
I'm torn with the Ramseys calling Beuf to advise on severity of injury as I don't think he really could make an informed decision over the phone unless there was no pulse, no heartbeat for any length of time. Even if they informed him of the blow to the head, how could he medically evaluate?
So many questions!
Valid points, valid questions.......will we ever have the answers we seek?

Calling the pilot is an interesting thought, although he apparently was called by JR at around 6:45 that morning. Mike was already on his way to the airport. It's kind of odd to me that during all the trauma and chaos going on at that time that JR would have the presence of mind to call the pilot, presumably to say the flight needed to be cancelled.
 
  • #7
Protocols of LM required John to contact the corp. before the police.

If chronic SA were the catalyst for the murder, the Rs should have been determined to not anyone know what JonBenet was enduring. The staging of the final assault can be seen in this light. Making sure that Dr. B kept quiet professionally was very important. Eventually, he destroyed JB's files. Score one for Team R. Of course, Patsy could not remember why she called Dr. B several times in one day.

I wonder if the third call were out of state?
 
  • #8
Protocols of LM required John to contact the corp. before the police.

If chronic SA were the catalyst for the murder, the Rs should have been determined to not anyone know what JonBenet was enduring. The staging of the final assault can be seen in this light. Making sure that Dr. B kept quiet professionally was very important. Eventually, he destroyed JB's files. Score one for Team R. Of course, Patsy could not remember why she called Dr. B several times in one day.

I wonder if the third call were out of state?
Correct. That was the protocol which JR would've had to sign off on that he understood. He did not follow protocol. And who would've been adequately equipped with the proper protocols to deal with a kidnapping of an executive's child by a "foreign faction"? An international defense contractor.

The three calls to Dr. Beuf's office were made after hours and within the space of 30 minutes, which implies a sense of urgency. And yet, PR could not remember the calls. Right.
 
  • #9
Sorry about that ispywithmylittleeye!

I will stress that as far as I am aware, there is only the one source for this information, and that is Peter Boyles. To my knowledge, James Rapp has never commented on it. I would love it if someone could confirm this information. I too suspected that Bynum (or another legal source, but I have always guessed that it was Bynum) was contacted.. Dr. Beuf was a surprise to me too. Would also love to know who the 3rd call went to.

I can't recall if Boyles discussed the times the calls were made. But if they really did call Dr. Beuf, I wonder if it was for to ask if he thought the blow to the head was survivable? We can only guess of course, but these calls make sense to me in that I can believe that they happened and are for real. But it sure would be nice to have a confirmation!
I think it was only an anonymous poster on forumsforjustice who claimed that Peter Boyles said such a thing. I don't think evidence that he really did say that has ever been given.
 
  • #10
Eventually, he destroyed JB's files.
Does anyone have a source for this? I'm not saying there isn't one, I've just never seen it.
 
  • #11
I think it was only an anonymous poster on forumsforjustice who claimed that Peter Boyles said such a thing. I don't think evidence that he really did say that has ever been given.
I researched this a bit and I seriously doubt it ever happened. Boyles has done hundreds of shows about the case, and never mentioned that smoking gun again? He just did another 4 hour show dedicated exclusively to this case again. He made no mention nor even any hint of it. He is one hundred percent PDI and even says she did it on the most recent show. But he makes no mention of those smoking gun phone records, yet goes over all his other reasons or RDI. It simply didn't happen. He hasn't seen any phone records. I'm confident that rumor needs to die. Boyles would be screaming it from the mountain tops if there were a shred of proof to it.

Boyles did at one point see an actual image of the ransom note before it was publicly released. I would say somehow that story was morphed or manipulated into the bogus phone records story.

From everything I have been able to ascertain, Rapp never got to any records that shot any holes in the official phone timeline, unfortunately.
 
  • #12
I think it was only an anonymous poster on forumsforjustice who claimed that Peter Boyles said such a thing. I don't think evidence that he really did say that has ever been given.
In post #2 cloudedtruth says that Boyles said that on an episode of Boyles' radio show.
 
  • #13
In post #2 cloudedtruth says that Boyles said that on an episode of Boyles' radio show.
Just recently I saw a reference to John’s lawyer Michael Bynum and Pediatrician Dr. Beuf being called at 3 AM. That is about 3 hours before the 911 call. I wonder if this come from more than the Peter Boyales reference on his radio show.
s Mike Bynum's
ElevatorPie said:
The notion of JR placing a call to his lawyer prior to the 9-1-1 call is a bit more than just pure speculation.

On a Peter Boyles show back in the 90s, Peter mentioned that he'd seen proof of the fact that a call to Bynum was placed *prior* to the 9-1-1 call.

There is speculation that perhaps the records he saw were the records that James Rapp obtained illegally. In his book, Steve Thomas pointedly laments that the police were not allowed to use those records, since they had been obtained under false premises.
 
  • #14
Here's some interesting information that I have come across while researching information about the missing phone records. It ties in both with questions I have raised about the apparent lack of following the security protocol in place for Lockheed Martin that as an officer of the company JR would have had to sign off on and agreed to follow, and also the possibility of phone calls being made prior to the 911 call.

Donald Freed is an author and at the time faculty member of Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles. He was interviewed by Bob McFarland on KGNU-Boulder on February 15, 1999.

In 1999, Dr. Bob McFarland interviews Donald Freed, a professor, author, screenwriter, etc...


Donald Freed "...I must tell you finally that Norm Early who had been the district attorney of Denver and was the vice-president of Lockheed Martin Security at the time of the murder of Jon Benet. I interviewed him at the time. He's a fascinating man---- extremely intelligent. And he said to me finally, "You know I had a six year-old son and we have a security protocol and that letter threatened other executives. Where was the security? Where were the bodyguards? Where was the protocol? Where was the alert; the drill; the routine; the regimen that we so carefully shared and worked on at Lockheed Martin? Not a word. Not a sound. Not a telephone call."

So, he began to call executives and lawyers and others and said, "Why wasn't my family alerted? What happened?" And they said to him, "Well, there was no threat" And he said, "How do you know that?" They said, "Well, I don't know. We just knew". And he said, "Well, think about it and I want an answer!" The next day he talked to some of these people and reported to me that they said, "You know we stayed awake all night wrestling with the question----agonizing with it. And you know you're right. How did we know that the (ransom note) was a hoax immediately? We might have known it in a day or two, or a week or two. But how do we know until this day?

To this day there has been no arrest. To this day we know that there was a murder and that there was a note left stating that foreign agents were involved."
This begs the question, was Lockheed Martin and perhaps the FBI tipped off even before the 911 call? This question is discussed in Joe Calhoun's article "The Book and the JonBenet Ramsey Case: The Sins of Perfect Omission", which was published in March of 1999 in the Montelibre Monthly. He writes, "Donald Freed reports that someone in a lofty position assured the FBI and Lockheed Martin security 'prior to the 911 call that any report coming from Boulder would not affect national security' and directed 'let the police handle it'".

We know that BPD was obstructed in their efforts to obtain all of the Ramsey phone records. The DA's office refused to sign the requested subpoenas. Why? This frustrated the BPD to no end, and they were told by Hofstrom that they of course could go around their office and appeal to a judge, however Hofstrom implied that would not be a good idea with potential consequences. Hint, hint. There was already a lot of dissent between the DA's office and the BPD, this move would've angered DA Hunter and perhaps made things even worse. The superiors in the investigators backed down as a result. Months down the road Hofstrom and DeMuth allegedly suggested that BPD make a direct "ask nicely" request to team Ramsey for the records. Now Beckner was in charge and he facilitated the request. Some, but not all records were then turned over. Of note is that the cell phone records for JR were blank for the entire month of December. Steve Thomas contacted Touch Tone (IIRC that was the company) directly to inquire specifically about JR's phone. Team Ramsey had only allowed December's records for that phone to be released, but Thomas was informed of the number of minutes logged for that phone in October and November, which showed normal usage which made December at zero stand out. This is all documented in Steve Thomas's book.

JR claims that he lost his cell phone and that's why there were no calls logged in December. So, did he lose his phone on November 30th? Did he know immediately it was lost and reported it to the phone company by EOD on 11/30 so that they cut it off on 12/1? Apparently there is no record of that.

Meanwhile, James Rapp saw an opportunity to make bank on the Ramsey case. He impersonated JR and was able to obtain credit card records. He is alleged to have been the one impersonating JR who called McGuckin's Hardware store to inquire about purchases on Ramsey CC's. He also obtained the phone records during the period that BPD was trying to get subpoenas for those records signed off on. Steve Thomas says those records exist, sealed away in the police files not able to be used because they were illegally obtained. James Rapp wanted to make money off the Ramsey documents that he obtained. He was shopping them around. It's absolutely a possibility that he let Peter Boyle see some records as an end to his means.

Some other details to consider. Mike Bynum was reported to have been on a ski trip and on the slopes on the 26th. The body is found by JR shortly after 1PM. Bynum is reportedly back in Boulder by around 3PM and has Haddon and Morgan in place by EOD on the 26th, although both he and JR misrepresent that it was a day or two later. Why the need to lie about that? According to Priscilla White, Bynum calls Fleet sometime between 4 and 5PM on the 26th to tell him he needs to show up at his office the following day. At this meeting Fleet is told in no uncertain terms that Haddon and Morgan are handling things and that he needs to stay out of it, which he takes as a threat. How the heck did Mike Bynum get to Boulder so fast if he was on the slopes? How did he get Haddon and Morgan in place so quickly on the day after Christmas when those wealthy, powerful folks would likely still be enjoying the holiday?

No notification to Lockheed Martin executives. Lightning fast response by Bynum in getting back to Boulder and getting one of the most powerful and well connected law firms in the state on the case. They had PI's on the ground interviewing neighbors, etc. on 12/27 beating the BPD to interviews in some cases. DA refuses to sign subpoenas for phone records, which are then not obtained for almost a year, at which time one crucial phone shows zero calls for the most important month. Why? Not only is it all suspicious, it points to the very real possibility of calls being made prior to the 911 call that they don't want to be revealed. IMO the Ramseys didn't call 911 until they knew that their backs were covered. IMO there were those that knew what those phone records contained and they worked to conceal them. The fact that James Rapp was able to get his hands on them well before police did, and possibly before damage control could be done most likely was a big concern. As to the question why Boyles has never mentioned it again, I can make a guess at a few reasons.

Can I prove that phone calls were made prior to the 911 call? No. Lacking those records no one can. But it is my opinion that there were calls, and that at one time there was a record of those calls. There are some intriguing clues that point to this being a real probability. But I stress once again, this is my opinion.
 
Last edited:
  • #15
Dbm
 
  • #16
I think they had legal help with how to obscure the crime scene so no one person could be accused. How did that conversation go? Think about what that would look like with each potential suspect. My thought is what scenario would garner the most sympathy to get as much cooperation as they got.

What a fascinating thread, ispy.

A while back I copied Spade’s excellent “Lawyering JonBenet” thread from the Forums for Justice website to this forum. It has additional information and commentary that dovetail with this discussion. Here’s the link:

 
  • #17
if there were calls much earlier (like an hour or more) than the alleged wake-up time and the 911 call that would be incredibly sus whoever it's to

i've entertained the possibility (on the assumption JR was not involved in the murder or coverup, at least not yet as of 12/26) that he called someone who can help with hostage negotations, either before the 911 call or at least before the body was discovered. an actual negotiator, or a point of contact who could help him get one, etc. it seems likely he would have had some training or information on what to do in such a situation, given his job. if he was out of the loop and took the ransom note at face value, that would make sense.

also (or maybe overlapping) a possibility he called someone at LM and/or the pentagon, as required by a company policy or even a law. i assume he had a clearance for his job, and i am guessing he had access to sensitive stuff. aiui, if you're in that kind of position, the government wants to know when someone has leverage over you. debts, assets, side jobs, infidelity, embarassing secrets... anything like that would concern me if i were responsible for maintaining secrecy.

the possibility never occurred to me that the ransom note, by purporting to be from someone who took JBR hostage, triggered corporate and/or legal requirements and procedures, and it opens up a whole bunch of new theories i had never thought of, and i feel like john nash scribbling red circles on maps and connecting them with pieces of string. was the note written with that goal in mind? did it happen accidentally (e.g., if PR wrote the note and JR wasn't involved)? but does it somehow explain the parents never pointing the finger at each other? ... this is so potentially disruptive to my prevailing theories on the case that i almost wish it hadn't been pointed out to me, lol.
 
  • #18
What a fascinating thread, ispy.

A while back I copied Spade’s excellent “Lawyering JonBenet” thread from the Forums for Justice website to this forum. It has additional information and commentary that dovetail with this discussion. Here’s the link:

I said it before and I'll say it again, when people ask if a RDI why would JR still be keeping this story front and center? My answer is the internet. There are a lot of asses that need to stay covered. And the internet has made it harder and harder to hide the cover up. And now, the propaganda machine is in full swing to combat the truth. Good God, makes me wonder if they paraded BR on Dr Pilloshit intentionally to keep the wheel greased.
 
  • #19
Valid points, valid questions.......will we ever have the answers we seek?

Calling the pilot is an interesting thought, although he apparently was called by JR at around 6:45 that morning. Mike was already on his way to the airport. It's kind of odd to me that during all the trauma and chaos going on at that time that JR would have the presence of mind to call the pilot, presumably to say the flight needed to be cancelled.
JR had to call the pilot early in the morning since they were supposed to be leaving early. He called the pilot again later that day to reschedule the flight, intending to leave with Patsy and Burke after JonBenet was found. IIRC, the police had to tell him it was not ok to leave the state at that time.
 
  • #20
I said it before and I'll say it again, when people ask if a RDI why would JR still be keeping this story front and center? My answer is the internet. There are a lot of asses that need to stay covered. And the internet has made it harder and harder to hide the cover up. And now, the propaganda machine is in full swing to combat the truth. Good God, makes me wonder if they paraded BR on Dr Pilloshit intentionally to keep the wheel greased.
Excellent point! Totally agree.
 

Guardians Monthly Goal

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
208
Guests online
1,979
Total visitors
2,187

Forum statistics

Threads
637,218
Messages
18,710,921
Members
244,071
Latest member
chey_inquire
Back
Top