If you believe the Ramsey's did it please answer this for me...

[SleuthingSleuth]

It's certainly something that has to be considered when one is formulating their conclusions/theories about the case.

By the way - other than John being ruled out as the author of the ransom note, I keep hearing he was "cleared" in the case - based on what? Are they just referring to the ransom note?

I believe he is only said to be "cleared" by some because he was ruled out of writing the RN.

One notes though, among the items Pam took away from the house (items never to be examined by the police), included a bag of golf clubs belonging to John...I believe they were in the basement level.

 

[lovebites]

I believe he is only said to be "cleared" by some because he was ruled out of writing the RN.

One notes though, among the items Pam took away from the house (items never to be examined by the police), included a bag of golf clubs belonging to John...I believe they were in the basement level.

Hmmm interesting. Perhaps it was John and a golf club used to cause the injury to her head? It never made much sense that if it was the flashlight that was used, they would wipe it down and just leave it sitting there on the counter in plain sight.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

Hmmm interesting. Perhaps it was John and a golf club used to cause the injury to her head? It never made much sense that if it was the flashlight that was used, they would wipe it down and just leave it sitting there on the counter in plain sight.

It was speculated early on that a golf club may have been used, yeah.
Even if the flashlight wasn't used as the weapon...it was still involved in some manner...enough for a person to wipe down both the light and its batteries. As for why they left it on the counter...who can say.

 

[tumble]

It was speculated early on that a golf club may have been used, yeah.
Even if the flashlight wasn't used as the weapon...it was still involved in some manner...enough for a person to wipe down both the light and its batteries. As for why they left it on the counter...who can say.

I think they left the maglite on the counter to make it look like an intruder brought it and forgot it. They never really acknowledged the flashlight saying it was too big and too dirty. I think this is why the batteries also was wiped, no Ramsey print could be on the flashlight if it was supposed to come with an intruder.

 

[gaia]

I think they left the maglite on the counter to make it look like an intruder brought it and forgot it. They never really acknowledged the flashlight saying it was too big and too dirty. I think this is why the batteries also was wiped, no Ramsey print could be on the flashlight if it was supposed to come with an intruder.

Yep!

 

[Nuisanceposter]

The thing I find odd about the flashlight is the way the Rs didn't point it out to police when they first arrived. You would think that if that wasn't their flashlight and their daughter was gone that they would have shown it to the police right away saying, "the person who took my child must have left this behind because it isn't ours." However, it turned out to be theirs, despite their attempts to have trouble recalling if it was or not.

I had heard elsewhere that this flashlight was normally kept in a drawer next to the bar. That's not exactly an obvious place. I have a hard time believing an intruder who meant to attack JonBenet hadn't brought his own, and I can't really see him searching around until he found one there to use.

 

[tumble]

The thing I find odd about the flashlight is the way the Rs didn't point it out to police when they first arrived. You would think that if that wasn't their flashlight and their daughter was gone that they would have shown it to the police right away saying, "the person who took my child must have left this behind because it isn't ours." However, it turned out to be theirs, despite their attempts to have trouble recalling if it was or not.

Yes, this is shrewd. The flashlight was certainly a problem for them. They knew that there were witnesses who knew that they owed a 'similar' flashlight. Pointing it out and then not being able to produce their own would seem suspicious to LE. They just planted some seeds of confusion which now has grown up to be quite a djungle.

This action is the same as with the underware, they don't say straight out that this points to an intruder but say 'noone of us would dress her that way, looks strange'.

And about the pineapple, 'never seen it, looks strange, noone of us would do a setup like that'.

 

[BBB167893]

"You don't think Patsy had emotional problems?"

I know I'll catch hell for this, but there is evidence that she (Patsy) was molested as a child and that she was having problems with her perscriptions.

"What is the obvious signpost that a mother is going to kill her kids? Diane Downs was promiscuous and known to be jealous and possessive with her boyfriends. So are hundreds of other women, so how did you know she was going to kill her kids? Susan Smith had had emotional problems as a teenager after being molested by her stepfather. So do a lot of teenagers, and Susan appeared to be coping well. She volunteered in her community, got excellent grades, was considered friendly and "down to earth" by those who knew her. She had a good job, her divorce had been amicable and she appeared to be a loving mother. So what was your clue that she was going to murder her kids?"

Yeah, you'd think they all wore signs!

"If the head blow came first, explain why her entire cranium didn't fill with blood? If you've seen the pictures of her skull, it was split from end to end."

Head wounds are a funny thing. Kerry Brega said it's common for head wounds like that not to bleed at all. My dad was a marine in Vietnam. One night, his unit found a VC body. Man's head was half-gone. He was STILL ALIVE!

"Didn't she mention the Susan Smith case on at least one occasion?"

yes, she did.

A"s I have stated other times...if it was just the head bash and the ransom note I would think Patsy might have just snapped but the garotte and the paint brush put this in the realm of someone very disturbed having had to have done it."

And if I told you that a mother had decapitated her child, what would you say?

"That's the key, in RETROSPECT. In retrospect I think there's plenty of evidence that Patsy had problems in retrospect"

Damn straight.

"Consider, though, the fact that Linda Hoffman Pugh, the housekeeper had witnessed Patsy raging at JB over toileting issues. There is some documented evidence (which I am too lazy to dig up right now) of parents resorting to corporal punishment for toileting issues, and the punishment is very much like molestation - it's not sexually motivated, it is motivated out of anger and as punishment. I picture something like "let's GET YOU CLEANED UP! OH! IS THAT TOO ROUGH? MAYBE NEXT TIME YOU'LL TRY HARDER TO MAKE IT TO THE TOILET!!" as JB is roughly "cleaned up" in a very abusive fashion."

I can see it.

"Can you wrap your head around the possibility of an escalation in angry treatment of JBR by Patsy? I can."

At one time, it was too hard for me to think it. Not now.

"From your posts, you seem to think that all murderers are easily spottable - "whack jobs who lead double lives." Yes, it would be wonderful if all killers were easily identifiable villians with handlebar mustaches like from the movies. Then we could all steer clear of them. But that's just not reality. It's far more likely that a spouse, an ex, a friend, a co-worker or relative will be someone's murderer than a mysterious "whack job" stranger."

K. Taylor, I never cease to be amazed by the level of sheer, utopian naivete regarding this case. It's depressing, quite frankly.

"What makes it so hard to hang this on Patsy is *the degree of the brutality involved*."

Then we'd better let Darlie Routier go.

"I've heard the housekeeper on occassion witnessed Patsy having a "problem" with Jonbenet's soiling problems."

That's a generous way of putting it.

 

[sandraladeda]

most people who murder are at the very least found to be living a double life-nothing about that has ever turned up-believe me if there was any dirt on the ramseys it would be used against them..
its not as if we dont grasp what you and the guilties arre saying-we dont agree..its painful to watch some of u attempt to educate the not guilties-its that we dont agree-not that we are stupid or ignorant.

I don't recall suggesting anyone was stupid or ignorant...

I thought that's what healthy debate was all about - giving our opinions, discussing why we disagree with each other's opinions? No? :waitasec:

I would love to see the statistic which suggests that "most people who murder are at the very least found to be living a double life".

If there was dirt on the Ramsey's it would be used against them? By who? The DA's office? That's a laugh....

imho

 

[sandraladeda]

I never cease to be amazed by the level of sheer, utopian naivete regarding this case. It's depressing, quite frankly.

I couldn't agree more!

 

[Lauren]

I have still a hard time believing that the Ramsey would do that. But who knows I could be wrong. Just my opinion!

 

[LawDawg]

I find the bowl of pineapple one of the most questionable things. I can't imagine an intruder taking the time to serve pineapple to his/her victim -- unless the perpetrator had been in the house for some time before the Ramsey's got home that night, and forgot to remove it. I understand that only Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints were found on it. Unless it could have been served by someone to "soften" her up - wasn't she fond of pineapple, or am I starting to make things up?

 

[s_finch]

Who knows, maybe JB was having fits after the blow. Maybe strange scary noices emerged from her as her brain was failing.
This could have caused the perp to 'loose it' and just try to stop it, JSB.

Good point!

 

[s_finch]

Sleep deprivation?

I think the party was on the 23rd, so Patsy must have gotten up early, then stayed up late cleaning afterwards.
The 24th she was busy with last-minute Christmas wrapping, then probably stayed up late putting things under the tree.
The 25th the kids woke her up early, then, after a very long day, when everyone else got to go to bed, she STILL had work to do--and an alarm set for 5:30AM the next morning.

I always thought the "Melatonin tablet" John mentioned was a tacit agreement between him and Patsy that he wasn't responsible for what happened during the night.

Melatonin tablet??? :waitasec: What is that?? TIA

 

[UKGuy]

I find the bowl of pineapple one of the most questionable things. I can't imagine an intruder taking the time to serve pineapple to his/her victim -- unless the perpetrator had been in the house for some time before the Ramsey's got home that night, and forgot to remove it. I understand that only Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints were found on it. Unless it could have been served by someone to "soften" her up - wasn't she fond of pineapple, or am I starting to make things up?

LawDawg,

The pineapple may have nothing to do with her death, it may represent a convivial domestic interlude between her arrival back from the Whites and her death. So unremarkable Patsy forgot all about it until she was questioned about it.

The importance of the pineapple is that it contradicts the parents statements, and tells you Jonbenet was awake and alive after returning from the Whites e.g. she most likely did not go straight to bed!


.

 

[s_finch]

My point had nothing to do with being able to predict that people who have problems will become murderers or who will snap....just that murdering mothers will have a history of problems....I don't necessarily mean someone just snapping and killing their child by total accident ....I mean the ones who do horrible things to their children...JBR wasn't just killed...she was bludgeoned, violated with a paint brush and garotted...I don't know about you but I don't read about that kind of thing being done to a child by their parents very often...and when I do the parents are usually total whack jobs or pretty obviously having mental or emotional issues.

I think what I stated was very clear and am not sure why people interpret what I have said as something different than what I said.

Not everyone with problems will be a killer. But most killers will show to have been having problems or behaviors in their life that in retrospect will explain why or how they did what they did. I hardly think Patsy would have killed JBR because she wanted a new boyfriend who didn't like kids the way Susan Smith did...Susan Smith may have been coping but she obviously wasn't coping very well now was she?

I don't find it hard to believe that a woman would kill her kid for bedwetting...I find it hard to believe that this Patsy killed her kid for bedwetting. Some emotional wreck or a woman or a drug user or an abusive or psychotic mother might do it....lash out in anger ....but even then....only a few of them would go beyond killing into the regions that this murder went with the overkill of the garotte and the paintbrush. I tend to think that a parent or any person who does that sort of thing would be a bit out of the ordinary having in the past showing some signs that they were this brutal of a person.

As I have stated other times...if it was just the head bash and the ransom note I would think Patsy might have just snapped but the garotte and the paint brush put this in the realm of someone very disturbed having had to have done it.

JMHO if anyone gets what I am trying to say LOL I may not express myself clearly.

BTW I dont think it impossible PR killed JBR it just isn't what I think is probable.

I know what you mean in the above bolded section, but then someone else who might have accidentally cracked their child's skull wouldn't have had as much as stake as Patsy thought she had. Patsy wasn't in a position to disappear or leave the country. She was a former Miss W. Virginia, was married to a very powerful, high profile man---she couldn't disappear. She'd recently been through a great amount both physically and emotionally and perhaps snapped, pushed JBR too hard and then panicked and saw "overkill" as her only way out AND/OR she also had to find a way to cover up JBR's "chronic" sexual abuse. Patsy had lived a priveldged life, she was not of the middle class, I doubt that she ever thought that the R's would be considered as the perps, but just so no one would think the R's were responsible, she went into "overkill" and wrote the "War and Peace of ransom notes" as the FBI calls it.

 

[newtv]

She suffered from Panic Attacks and Depression and took meds for it

thats offensive to the millions of people being treated for such things-the key being
she was being treated for it?
andrea yates wasnt..she stopped her meds

patsy was described by the housemaid i think as screaming at jon binett about the soiling behaviour-many mothers do scream at thei children and dont kill them for it

as well- if u talk to people who have fought cancer or had any brush with mortality, they dont get more impatient with life-they dont get more demanding-they get less-they learn that nothing matters-u just die one day and its all gone..
now-why would a woman learning this need to kill her daughter for any reason.
If anything u value life and pray for your own.

It just bewilders me how all these things are infered about patsy when there is no eveidence except from those with guilty decided or whom are also not wanting the finger pointed at them saying so.

The trouble with this is that its made up - I dont even believe she wrote the note-if I believed she wrote the note I would believe she was involved in a cover up- I dont believe it was burke..and I dont believe it was john-nor do I believe he was sexually depraved..I know men abuse-but there would also be something else show up from somewhere to substantiate it.
For instance why would melinda binnett be missed if he was an abuser.

some say they wouldnt divorce-that makes no sense either-he divorced before to be with patsy..even his exwife said there is no way it was patsy-and that john did not abuse any of her childrenor her-there are no ugly skeltons..thats why this bothers me.

When the law officials couldnt find anything-rumor fueled the rest of it-and thats not fair.
I dont even think they were off the wall for lawyering up- he is an executive who has lawyers at his disposal-he didnt have to go far to get advice or to have one of his lawyers call and say to clam up cuz it could even be a business related murder.

Differnt from the walshes and klass-theri children were missing for a long time before being found-and they knew to get a search happening they had to get themselves off the suspect list..
JBR was found within 24 hours
she was dead-and that would put a different spin on an attitude toward cooperation-especially if u were also clearly seeing u were considered the suspect and especially if u knew u had nothing to do with it.

He had a successful company where things were being handled competently-he looked at the keystone cops and lost faith-if I had the feeling i was going to be charged for a murder i didnt comitt i would lawyer up too-fast.

I think the combinations of variables involved show lots of possibilities for behaviour not readily understood.

I have often thot the gaps in patsy's thinking had to do with using depression meds and sedatives

anti-depressants affect short term memory hugely.
sedatives make u stumble on your words-not remember things u did
these factors have always stuck out to me as explaining patsy's gaps.
I think its hard to admit that drugs are causing u to not remember-or wonder how they would effect a lie detector test..yada

Its more that everything that comes out of anyones mouth is subject to interpretation and if u see her as guilty every word will be used to prove that.

If u think that the handwriting analysts that said karr wrote the note and he did not are exposed as losers-what about the ones who say it is or isnt patsy-you cant pick and chose the losers-if they are losers for saying karr wrote it-there is the same possibility that they are losers for saying patsy did..and vice versa.

Its the picking and choosing what to focus on that proves one person guilty and the other a but case that gets to me..patsy had no reason to kill-no background that would make her a killer-no ghosts of a double life-or a secret way of life exposed after the killing or after death.

The same with john-no smut has come out on him-the most anyone can say is they dont like him - he is mean-he has caused problems for people etc
So, basically if I was a ramsey I would be fighting back all the way too-peopke were trying to hurt them-its not as if they just started being mean to some folks for no reason..they were under attack and u get tired of it after awhile..

That they even survived it is incredible.

 

[Toltec]

Sorry...meant to type 12AM ...a nightly routine for Patsy and JonBenet...except that Patsy stated that she did not wake THAT NIGHT to take JonBenet to the toilet.

Another routine Patsy was leaving JonBenet's door open....

Patsy slips up during interrogations when she stated "i closed it"....

I do not know if JonBenet's soiled panties were collected by BPD or not...the panties collected in the search warrant do not say "used" or "clean".

Whatever....what I do know is that JonBenet was not wearing the size 12 bloomies until after her death....no skid marks on the panties...and no fibers from her black velvet pants...or tights.

 

[Bronte Nut]

I couldn't agree more!

Neither could I.

The case comes down to this - you either think the Ramseys did it or you don't.

To me, the They Did It stance is based on a number of major points - these are only a few...

There was no clear evidence of an intruder, and the Ramseys are the only people who can provably be placed in the house on that fateful night.

There was no full spectrum (i.e. untainted and 13-loci) alien/non-Ramsey DNA, despite the fact that the killer MUST have had extensive and prolonged very close contact with the child.

The Ramseys completely ignored the contents of the ransom note, especially the threats, and called everybody and his dog, flooding the home i.e. the crime scene, with unnecessary DNA-bearing people. What better way to mess things up?

The Ramseys were consistently strange and obstructive in their relations with the authorities, and appeared arrogant and callous in interviews.

I have seen other RDI people list a dozen points, but these are enough to tell me that there has never been any reason to believe the Ramseys' story, and in the absence of ANY credible intruder, or ANY credible alien DNA, who the heck else could have done it?

 

[newtv]

the other thing with the pineapple-who's to say that she didnt get up and feed it to herself?
we just dont know
and i agree with the guilties on the strongest evidence against the ramseys is the lack of an intruder being found-however its not necessarily enuf to say they did it - not with all the other possible scenarios one can also point to.

who is to say that the pineapple wasnt in the fridge already-burke had had some as well - burke had helped his mother with the dishes by putting them away as she handed them to him on a previous day..
patsy could easily not know the pineapple was in the fridge thru simple memory loss
I cant remember what i am looking for as i go to get it never mind something like that-she may truly not havew recalled it being there..i am not reaching

I dont know how people are meds for the mind remember anything-the impact on them is very great where memory is concerned.