If you look at it logically it's very clear who did it!

[Ponytale]

CBI report noted serological analysis detected creatinine on the sheets, blanket, comforter, nightgown, pants and shirt. Creatinine is excreted in urine.

Well, I guess that tells us that the blanket and the nightgown could not have come out straight from the dryer then, does it?

 

[Deleted member 187229]

And it can not be done.

That’s your opinion. My opinion is that it can.

 

[Ponytale]

If her parents put her to bed and were with JB all night, then why wasn’t their DNA found on her at all? That’s a question that I have.

There was DNA from family members found on her. And it is logical to assume that all of their DNA can be found anywhere in the house. But what does it prove other than they lived in the same house and were relatives? Nothing.

 

[Bean&Cheese]

There was DNA from family members found on her. And it is logical to assume that all of their DNA can be found anywhere in the house. But what does it prove other than they lived in the same house and were relatives? Nothing.

Totally agree. I wasn’t sure if any of their DNA was found on her (which would have been odd if not because she SHOULD have family member DNA on her). If she didn’t have family member DNA on her, then I would think that would be a red flag as to the processing of the DNA was my only thought. Not that we can go back to Dec 26th, 1996

Det. Arndt stated that she could smell the decomposition on her, but we can assume that she had a trained nose to detect that. It is assumed that she died any time before 2 am, so yes there had been many hours to do all that needed to be done.

But there even if so, there is no other evidence at all to believe his involvement in this crime. Unless we think that he wrote it somewhere else and handed it to the "intruder" to take to the scene... another topic to discuss. But anyway, I think that if the authorities had any reason to suspect him, they would have investigated him a bit longer.

Accidents do not ask for gender, IQ or age. As we live in a house that we warm up with firewood during winter times, we chop wood for that and have taught our son how to do that since he was 7 years old. If a 7 year old is able to chop wood with an axe, I believe he would also be able to hit hard with anything object on another surface. Especially if angry...
I do not believe that she was pushed over or fell down from anywhere because it would have left additional marks on her body to suggest that.

Neither have I, but it does not mean that it could not have happened. After all I am not an expert on that field nor have received any education about it - but there are experts on that field who have said that it is possible. So I tend to believe those who know what they are talking about.

I have a problem with the theory that strangulation came first because that would mean that there was an intent to kill - it was a deliberate act. I do not believe that any of the Ramsey's wanted to kill her. I see no reason nor motive for that. And as there is very little evidence of an intruder - especially an intruder with an intent to kill her - I have very hard time believing that too. Even If I'd believe Fleet or someone else that the family knew came and did it I do not believe that that someone would have come to the house and just strangled her. As I understand you also believe that Fleet was sexually motivated for this crime - why then strangle her to death first rather than fulfill his fantasies? And it makes me question - if someone strangled her first, why was the head bash needed at all? It makes no sense to hit her. If something seems too complicated. it is not the right way. IMO.


I totally agree with you that it is something that would bother me too. But again we have no proof or reasons to be suspicious of any foul play in this case. And if there is no real cause to be concerned, I think of it as something that is probably not relevant to the case.

But if it is not out of the blue bat there was an accident that had happened? And if it was caused by Burke? We do not know about the previous signs because all the records are sealed. To me, it is something to be suspicious of and tells that there is something to hide. Now, if there were signs and the parents chose to ignore them, they were guilty of knowingly putting JB into harms way (just like the GJ indicted).
If they knew that they would be seen guilty, they needed to cover it all up. Plus add the previous SA to the math.

It is all why we are here for. I hope we will see that day come.

re: the “strangulation”. The Zell brothers explain this in their 3 part interview on true Crime Garage. This is a going to be very disturbing, but, they said that a garrote is used during sexual assault acts because when oxygen is cut off at a certain point, the body kind of “seizes” and muscles contract that simulates the victim climaxing. But, that there is a fine line where this point and death. If I remember correctly, they said that Ted Bundy used this during his assaults. (BTW, I am undecided about who committed the crime as I am still in the research phase

 

[Ponytale]

re: the “strangulation”. The Zell brothers explain this in their 3 part interview on true Crime Garage. This is a going to be very disturbing, but, they said that a garrote is used during sexual assault acts because when oxygen is cut off at a certain point, the body kind of “seizes” and muscles contract that simulates the victim climaxing. But, that there is a fine line where this point and death. If I remember correctly, they said that Ted Bundy used this during his assaults. (BTW, I am undecided about who committed the crime as I am still in the research phase

I understand that idea, but - if it was a sexually motivated crime, shouldn't there be more evidence of that seen? Does that crime scene remind you of an intruder who is sexually motivated to invade a home in the middle of Christmas night to sexually assault a random 6-year-old girl? If you think about Bundy cases or any other cases where there was a sexually motivated perpetrator committing a crime - they all show without a doubt that there was a sexually motivated perpetrator who committed that crime. The crime scene and the victims body show signs that point to that, and the crime scene itself is usually left far more gruesome.

In JB's case it rather seems that the SA was an "after thought" not the primary cause. And there is no clear factual evidence that supports that there was SA happening during the time of the crime/body scene staging. The SA that resulted in bleeding has said to have happened that night and some time before her death - it leaves room for different options.

 

[Bean&Cheese]

Do we know if the DNA found on the waistband of the long Johns were the same as the saliva DNA on the underwear?

 

[Ponytale]

Do we know if the DNA found on the waistband of the long Johns were the same as the saliva DNA on the underwear?

In my understanding the partial DNA mixture found on the waistband of the long johns was the same UM1 marker that was found on the underwear and has been entered also into CODIS 22 years ago.

 

[Ponytale]

Both the father and son have been eliminated as suspects via DNA

This is not actually quite true. Lacy misled the public to think so.
Mary Lacy's statement regarding exonerating Ramsey's was not legally binding as she had no authority to do that.

She stated later: "I was trying to prevent a horrible travesty of justice. I was scared to death that despite the fact that there was no evidence, no psychopathy and no motive, the case was a train going down the track and the Ramseys were tied to that track."

And that is the only reason for this, IMO, illegal "exoneration". Quite brow raising to me, IMO. Should a DA really be "scared to death" - who intimidated her? IMO, obvious signs that she was somehow connected (or befriended) with the Ramsey's and possibly was bought by money or intimidated by power.

She claims that she "wanted to prevent a horrible travesty of justice" - but she did it anyway by knowingly issuing an exoneration that was not legally binding, and by that misled everyone to think that it was.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

I understand that idea, but - if it was a sexually motivated crime, shouldn't there be more evidence of that seen? Does that crime scene remind you of an intruder who is sexually motivated to invade a home in the middle of Christmas night to sexually assault a random 6-year-old girl? If you think about Bundy cases or any other cases where there was a sexually motivated perpetrator committing a crime - they all show without a doubt that there was a sexually motivated perpetrator who committed that crime. The crime scene and the victims body show signs that point to that, and the crime scene itself is usually left far more gruesome.

In JB's case it rather seems that the SA was an "after thought" not the primary cause. And there is no clear factual evidence that supports that there was SA happening during the time of the crime/body scene staging. The SA that resulted in bleeding has said to have happened that night and some time before her death - it leaves room for different options.

If she was wiped down in her genital area , I tend to think that there was SA that night. My question is was the results of the vaginal and anal swabs released to the public?

 

[Ponytale]

If she was wiped down in her genital area , I tend to think that there was SA that night. My question is was the results of the vaginal and anal swabs released to the public?

That night, yes. There was SA that happening night. But "that night" does not suggest an exact time frame.
It is also possible that she was SAd at the Whites party shortly before coming back home. It was stated the signs of the injury showed that there had to be a lot more bleeding than what was found on her underwear crotch. And we know that she was wiped because they saw it with the UV lamp. There was also some dried blood found on her. I believe that it all happened when she was wearing her normal size underwear that has never been found. And if there was "a lot more bleeding" maybe that bleeding continued into the changed size 12 ones.

It does not indicate as a fact that she was sexually assaulted during the staging. It could have happened while at the Whites or after they got home and she was put to bed (in her bed) or got out of the bed (somewhere else in the house). And soon after that SA the accident/head injury happened and it all went from there...

I'm not debating if there was any SA happening that night - I'm just saying that we have no proof of timing when it actually happened other that "on that night close to her murder" - which allows different possibilities. IMO

 

[GRT]

In my understanding the partial DNA mixture found on the waistband of the long johns was the same UM1 marker that was found on the underwear and has been entered also into CODIS 22 years ago.

Yes, I think it was entered into CODIS a couple of decades ago but now they're talking about genetic genealogy--the kind that caught the Golden State killer. That only became possible in 2018.

And, realistically, it's been so long that there's no more reason to delay.

 

[GRT]

This is not actually quite true. Lacy misled the public to think so.
Mary Lacy's statement regarding exonerating Ramsey's was not legally binding as she had no authority to do that.

She stated later: "I was trying to prevent a horrible travesty of justice. I was scared to death that despite the fact that there was no evidence, no psychopathy and no motive, the case was a train going down the track and the Ramseys were tied to that track."

And that is the only reason for this, IMO, illegal "exoneration". Quite brow raising to me, IMO. Should a DA really be "scared to death" - who intimidated her? IMO, obvious signs that she was somehow connected (or befriended) with the Ramsey's and possibly was bought by money or intimidated by power.

She claims that she "wanted to prevent a horrible travesty of justice" - but she did it anyway by knowingly issuing an exoneration that was not legally binding, and by that misled everyone to think that it was.

She probably should have worded it the same way the BPD worded the investigation as it involved the Whites -- that they were "witnesses," not "suspects."

But, no one is completely cleared as long as no killer has been found. They may not be prime suspects, but their role in the lead-up and afterward will still be studied and analyzed.

It's unfortunate this case got so much tabloid attention because that's what led the "witnesses" to start demanding they be publically cleared.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

That night, yes. There was SA that happening night. But "that night" does not suggest an exact time frame.
It is also possible that she was SAd at the Whites party shortly before coming back home. It was stated the signs of the injury showed that there had to be a lot more bleeding than what was found on her underwear crotch. I believe that it happened when she was wearing her normal size underwear that has never been found. And if there was "a lot more bleeding" maybe that bleeding continued into the changed size 12 ones.

It does not indicate as a fact that she was sexually assaulted during the staging. It could have happened while at the Whites or after they got home and she was put to bed (in her bed) or got out of the bed (somewhere else in the house). And soon after that SA the accident/head injury happened and it all went from there...

I'm not debating if there was any SA happening that night - I'm just saying that we have no proof of timing when it actually happened other that "on that night close to her murder" - which allows different possibilities. IMO

My question was more about the need to wipe her down and the fact she was swabbed for evidence. I think one examiner stated the injury to her would have been very painful. That satisfies my feeling that something bad happened that night. I am more curious if we have all the results.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Yes, I think it was entered into CODIS a couple of decades ago but now they're talking about genetic genealogy--the kind that caught the Golden State killer. That only became possible in 2018.

And, realistically, it's been so long that there's no more reason to delay.

From a thread on Reddit, with quotes from Mitch Morrissey regarding genetic genealogy:

[from Mitch Morrissey, former Ramsey grand jury special deputy prosecutor -- source (3:21:05)]:

It could. ... The problem with using genetic genealogy on that [the sample used to develop the 10-marker profile in CODIS] is it's a mixture, so when you go to sequence it, you're gonna get both persons' types in the sequence. And it's a very, very small amount of DNA. And for genetic genealogy, to do sequencing, you need a lot more DNA than what you're used to in the criminal system. So where you could test maybe eight skin cells and get a profile and, you know, solve your murder or exonerate an innocent person, you can't do that with sequencing. You've got to have a pretty good amount of DNA.

The Golden State Killer case used SNP profiles derived from the suspect's semen, which was found at the scene.

In the Ramsey case, we have a 10-marker STR profile deduced from ... a DNA mixture, which barely meets the minimum requirements for CODIS. You cannot do a familial search like in the Golden State case using an STR profile. You need SNP data.

To extract an SNP profile, we would need a lot more DNA from "unidentified male 1". If we can somehow find that, we can do a familial DNA search like they did in Golden State. But considering "unidentified male 1" had to be enhanced from 0.5 nanograms of DNA in the first place, and analysts have literally been scraping up picograms of Touch DNA to substantiate UM1's existence, the chance of stumbling upon another significant deposit of his DNA on any case evidence is practically zero.

 

[Bean&Cheese]

That night, yes. There was SA that happening night. But "that night" does not suggest an exact time frame.
It is also possible that she was SAd at the Whites party shortly before coming back home. It was stated the signs of the injury showed that there had to be a lot more bleeding than what was found on her underwear crotch. And we know that she was wiped because they saw it with the UV lamp. There was also some dried blood found on her. I believe that it all happened when she was wearing her normal size underwear that has never been found. And if there was "a lot more bleeding" maybe that bleeding continued into the changed size 12 ones.

It does not indicate as a fact that she was sexually assaulted during the staging. It could have happened while at the Whites or after they got home and she was put to bed (in her bed) or got out of the bed (somewhere else in the house). And soon after that SA the accident/head injury happened and it all went from there...

I'm not debating if there was any SA happening that night - I'm just saying that we have no proof of timing when it actually happened other that "on that night close to her murder" - which allows different possibilities. IMO

Do we know where the towel (or whatever it was) that was used to wipe her went?

 

[Bean&Cheese]

My question was more about the need to wipe her down and the fact she was swabbed for evidence. I think one examiner stated the injury to her would have been very painful. That satisfies my feeling that something bad happened that night. I am more curious if we have all the results.

Could she have died at the Whites Christmas party?

 

[Izzylizzy]

"Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000"

link:

C

Thread 'The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.'

Jan 3, 2011

• At least one package of size 12-14, “Days of the week,” underwear was purchased by PR at Bloomingdale’s during a trip to New York in November 1996.These were to be a gift for PR’s niece Jenny Davis.Jenny is described by JR as follows:

Q. Do you recall approximately how big she was in 1996? I know it is a tough question.
A. She's either a junior or a senior in high school now. And she's fairly stocky.
John Ramsey, 2000 interview

• Jenny was 11 or 12 years old in late 1996, PR’s description...

• cynic
• Replies: 1,376
• Forum: JonBenet Ramsey

• 

Jan.2011 WS thread.​

'The oversized Bloomingdales panties.'​

C

Thread 'The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.'

Jan 3, 2011

• At least one package of size 12-14, “Days of the week,” underwear was purchased by PR at Bloomingdale’s during a trip to New York in November 1996.These were to be a gift for PR’s niece Jenny Davis.Jenny is described by JR as follows:

Q. Do you recall approximately how big she was in 1996? I know it is a tough question.
A. She's either a junior or a senior in high school now. And she's fairly stocky.
John Ramsey, 2000 interview

• Jenny was 11 or 12 years old in late 1996, PR’s description...

• cynic
• Replies: 1,376
• Forum: JonBenet Ramsey

• 

 

[CloudedTruth]

Could she have died at the Whites Christmas party?

Highly unlikely. That would mean all the people there that night were complicit in a cover up and have kept quiet all these years.

And we have evidence of the two stops on the way home that night at the Walkers and the Stines. I won't even comment on if JBR was seen and by whom, but I find it hard to believe that JR, PR & BR would have behaved normally and stopped to drop off Christmas presents if JBR was lying dead in the car.

 

[Bekind89]

I understand that idea, but - if it was a sexually motivated crime, shouldn't there be more evidence of that seen? Does that crime scene remind you of an intruder who is sexually motivated to invade a home in the middle of Christmas night to sexually assault a random 6-year-old girl? If you think about Bundy cases or any other cases where there was a sexually motivated perpetrator committing a crime - they all show without a doubt that there was a sexually motivated perpetrator who committed that crime. The crime scene and the victims body show signs that point to that, and the crime scene itself is usually left far more gruesome.

In JB's case it rather seems that the SA was an "after thought" not the primary cause. And there is no clear factual evidence that supports that there was SA happening during the time of the crime/body scene staging. The SA that resulted in bleeding has said to have happened that night and some time before her death - it leaves room for different options.

Agree unless the person SA'ing her lived there and this was an ongoing, frequent occurrence.

I will always believe JR did this. Most of the time in cases such as this one it is the oldest male living in the home. Not always, but a very high percentage of cases. Jmo .

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

How dos it prove that she slept in her bed? If I go climb in my bed with my day clothes on right now, does it prove I slept in my bed with them if my clothing fibers are now found in my bed? It does not. I posted an example of how my kids play in their beds - it does not prove anything. She could have just climbed in her bed with her clothes on leaving her fibers behind. And she also could have done it before they even left for the Whites party.

And maybe they did put her to bed or she went to bed for herself, but climbed out again some time after. It does not prove that she did not get out of the bed later, does it?

Patsy also said that she put her to bed with her red turtleneck but we know that she didn't. IMO, they can say all that they want but it does not prove anything - yes, it could be true but it also could be a lie. What we should think is - is this relevant to the case and how?

Thank you ! THANK YOU!