If you look at it logically it's very clear who did it!

[CloudedTruth]

First, there’s no indication the parents would suddenly snap one night and resort to such an elaborate and inconsistent crime scene staging. However, we do see evidence of behavior that suggests a child could be involved. For example, the pineapple in the bowl, which appears to have been prepared or eaten by a child, the train track marks that are consistent with a poke or jab on her body, and the baffling 45-minute to 2-hour gap between the head trauma and the use of the garrote. These suggest a progression of events that are more consistent with a panicked attempt to cover up an accident or unintentional harm.

I disagree. I think Patsy in particular could easily very well have snapped.

She went through two operations and very intense cancer treatments for ovarian cancer. At the time of diagnosis, she was already stage 4, so her treatment had to be fairly aggressive. The treatment alone (chemotherapy) has lasting effects, we know that one of them was anxiety and panic attacks. From what I understand, she had a full hysterectomy which meant her ovaries were removed too, which makes sense because that's where the cancer was located. This causes menopause. One of the common symptoms of menopause is mood changes, moodiness, anxiety and irritability. I believe it was the housekeeper Linda Hoffman-Pugh who said that she had noticed Patsy was experiencing mood swings before Christmas, to the point where she even mentioned she thought Patsy might be bi-polar.

The holidays are stressful, and the Ramseys went to parties, hosted a last minute party in their home, Patsy had her surprise 40th birthday party in early December (turning 40 is often a big deal for women, especially a former beauty queen), JonBenet was in a Christmas parade, and then had events on 12/17 and 12/22. Then there was the trip to Charlevoix on 12/26 which Patsy didn't really want to take, followed by the cruise for which they needed to be on a commercial flight on 12/29, meaning she had to pack for both trips simultaneously.

Patsy did all the Christmas shopping, all the wrapping and sent out a Christmas letter. She oversaw the decorating of the house, which was elaborate. A different themed Christmas tree in every room.

Patsy had ordered JonBenet the My Twinn Doll made in her image (custom made from photographs provided) and she was very excited about it. Patsy reportedly told her, "It's just like you!" But JonBenet didn't think so, she was less than impressed. I can only imagine that Patsy was disappointed. We also know that Patsy and JonBenet fought over the outfit Patsy wanted her to wear to the Whites that evening. Patsy wanted to wear matching outfits, JonBenet didn't.

We do not know for sure if Patsy was on any anti-anxiety medication at the time. We do know that it had been prescribed after she had experienced a couple of significant panic attacks. According to Patsy, they had cocktails at the White's that evening, and John said they had wine with dinner. Alcohol can amplify emotions. And especially if she were also on any kind of medication.

It had been a long day with the kids getting up early and opening Christmas presents, making breakfast and cleaning up without the housekeeper's help and getting two kids dressed and ready for the Christmas party. John was gone for around 3 hours doing plane preparation. And in John's way of thinking, everything to do with the kids, the house, etc. was Patsy's responsibility, that was all on her. He just made the money. And IMO there were a lot of signs that it was just too much for her on a regular basis, let alone during the stress of the holidays. And on the way home from the party they made two stops to drop off Christmas presents and chat with those friends.

Personally, I'd be wiped out after such a day and there was still some packing to do. I think it's entirely possible that Patsy could've lost it over something that night and flown into a rage. I can't recall where I read this comment, but It really struck me as being profoundly insightful........that when you look at what a chaotic mess that house was, it was likely the outward reflection of a chaotic mind. That rings true. She also had a tendency toward obsessive behavior. She was obsessed with JonBenet and the pageant life, to the point where a few of her friends had noticed how unhealthy it was becoming for JonBenet and were concerned enough to be planning a kind of intervention after the holidays. And there were signs that JonBenet was starting to rebel against being dressed up in Patsy's image. That would've been upsetting for Patsy who had very distinct ideas about what she wanted everything and everyone to look like.

Which reminds me of something she once said in a televised interview about her illness, and wanting to be around to raise her children the way she wanted them raised, or something to that effect. There was also a Woman's Magazine article in April of 1996 where they interviewed Patsy. She said, " No one can take care of my kids and do the things I want to do with them the way I can". Now I can understand these feelings on a certain level, but with Patsy those statements feel more like she wanted to be around to ensure everything was done the way she wanted it, rather than just being there for her children and to watch them grow into whatever they wanted to become.

 

[Tower]

From what I understand, she had a full hysterectomy which meant her ovaries were removed too, which makes sense because that's where the cancer was located. This causes menopause. One of the common symptoms of menopause is mood changes, moodiness, anxiety and irritability.

RBBM/RSBM

Just as an aside, a “full” hysterectomy typically means only uterus & cervix removed with ovaries left intact. If ovaries are not removed, menopause does not immediately occur.

Doesn’t change any of the other points of your post, perhaps just slightly less of a hormonal change.

 

[CloudedTruth]

RBBM/RSBM

Just as an aside, a “full” hysterectomy typically means only uterus & cervix removed with ovaries left intact. If ovaries are not removed, menopause does not immediately occur.

Doesn’t change any of the other points of your post, perhaps just slightly less of a hormonal change.

I should’ve said “total” instead of “full”. Thanks for the correction.

 

[CrimeTheorist]

Did PR cover it up because she was so ashamed of what she had done? It seems like appearances were so important to her that maybe she didn't want anyone believing for a second that she could have even hit her own child. If there's no ransom note or garrote maybe she thought that her friends and family wouldn't believe her but with those things left at the scene thought no one would question it. She was thinking less about the police and more about the people who knew her.

 

[fridaybaker]

No not really, because apparently that was a very huge linear crack on the back of jbrs head. Actually I think it was more on the top of her head. You don't get that by just falling down the steps. You get that by somebody hitting you hard on the back of your head with something. So they had to come up with a murder scenario. And then Patsy's imagination ran away with her, and she came up with the whole sophisticated sex predator scenario.

Do you think a little girl the size of JBR could sustain a crack like that from falling onto the edge of a tub or sink?

The reason I ask is that there is a scenario that has been bandied about for many years and by many people who think that this was an accident as PR was helping her in the bathroom, and then she panicked, and the rest is history. I'm not sure I believe it in this case, but I can see such a thing happening in general.

 

[fridaybaker]

This is just a comment in general, not directed at anyone's post. I've read a few times over the years that JBR's pediatrician had stated that he never saw signs of abuse of JBR. I put zero credence on his "testimony". Here is why.

He wouldn't. He couldn't. How could he? If he'd said that there was ever a teeny, tiny, whisper or thought in the back of his mind that she were being abused, he could be, successfully, prosecuted for it. Lose his business, his license, his reputation, his income.... He is a mandatory reporter. There is really no other position for him to take. Either he noticed something, had a question, whatever, and didn't report it, look into it further, etc., or he didn't ever suspect anything. Either way, he's not going to be telling anyone he suspected abuse.

 

[Tower]

This is just a comment in general, not directed at anyone's post. I've read a few times over the years that JBR's pediatrician had stated that he never saw signs of abuse of JBR. I put zero credence on his "testimony". Here is why.

He wouldn't. He couldn't. How could he? If he'd said that there was ever a teeny, tiny, whisper or thought in the back of his mind that she were being abused, he could be, successfully, prosecuted for it. Lose his business, his license, his reputation, his income.... He is a mandatory reporter. There is really no other position for him to take. Either he noticed something, had a question, whatever, and didn't report it, look into it further, etc., or he didn't ever suspect anything. Either way, he's not going to be telling anyone he suspected abuse.

If he did suspect it, why wouldn’t he report it? In a town like Boulder, the Ramseys were not so rich or important that they could destroy his practice for reporting them. He could have blamed it on the pharmacist who kept filling prescriptions for infections. I think it’s possible he could have chosen not to report it, but what an unethical monster, if true.

The pediatricians I work with would not protect an influential family like this in the 90s or now. I would associate that type of behavior with a smaller town, with much richer people or with an earlier era, before mandatory reporting. Jmo

 

[fridaybaker]

My point is that whether or not he suspected it, he wouldn't now say he did. So, IMO, we can't rely on his testimony.

Now, as to whether or not he would, or would not, report it at the time he suspected it, I can think of so many reasons he might choose not to. He could be involved; he could have some relationship with the Ramsey's that we don't know about, or even if we did, it might not trigger suspicion on our part. There are any number of reasons. Maybe he didn't feel it would "go anywhere". There are many, many people who suspect or even witness or are made aware of such things and don't report it.

I have seen so much in life, I think I likely have a much poorer opinion of people in general than many here. I mean people of all stripes, but of doctors in particular, too. I've seen so, so much there, too: Doctors who abuse, doctors who lie, doctors who steal, doctors who are just really. crummy. people.

But in any case, in my book, he isn't going to come out and say he suspected something.

 

[CloudedTruth]

My point is that whether or not he suspected it, he wouldn't now say he did. So, IMO, we can't rely on his testimony.

Now, as to whether or not he would, or would not, report it at the time he suspected it, I can think of so many reasons he might choose not to. He could be involved; he could have some relationship with the Ramsey's that we don't know about, or even if we did, it might not trigger suspicion on our part. There are any number of reasons. Maybe he didn't feel it would "go anywhere". There are many, many people who suspect or even witness or are made aware of such things and don't report it.

I have seen so much in life, I think I likely have a much poorer opinion of people in general than many here. I mean people of all stripes, but of doctors in particular, too. I've seen so, so much there, too: Doctors who abuse, doctors who lie, doctors who steal, doctors who are just really. crummy. people.

But in any case, in my book, he isn't going to come out and say he suspected something.

Dr. Beuf did have a personal relationship with the Ramseys. John met him playing golf. They became friends. Dr. Beuf and his wife hosted the entire Ramsey family for dinner at the Beuf home a few times.

Dr. Beuf came to the Fernie’s house on the 26th and gave Patsy sedatives. He was also there on the 27th and told police they could not talk to her, she was sedated. He continued to prescribe her sedatives for quite some time even though as a pediatrician he was not her doctor.

 

[ShadyLady]

Dr. Beuf did have a personal relationship with the Ramseys. John met him playing golf. They became friends. Dr. Beuf and his wife hosted the entire Ramsey family for dinner at the Beuf home a few times.

Dr. Beuf came to the Fernie’s house on the 26th and gave Patsy sedatives. He was also there on the 27th and told police they could not talk to her, she was sedated. He continued to prescribe her sedatives for quite some time even though as a pediatrician he was not her doctor.

I still dont understand why parents did not immediately turn on security system and look for how kidnappers got into the home....and of course go to check on Burt...and why didnt the police look for entry in each and every room? And Papa Ramsey never mentioned window entry till later. Right...

Can Burt as a very smart boy have written the letter? "Faction", from one of his favorite Star Trek movie, First Contact?? And all of the other movie themes....almost like a child wrote that note IMO.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

If he did suspect it, why wouldn’t he report it? In a town like Boulder, the Ramseys were not so rich or important that they could destroy his practice for reporting them. He could have blamed it on the pharmacist who kept filling prescriptions for infections. I think it’s possible he could have chosen not to report it, but what an unethical monster, if true.

The pediatricians I work with would not protect an influential family like this in the 90s or now. I would associate that type of behavior with a smaller town, with much richer people or with an earlier era, before mandatory reporting. Jmo

Status and class does play a role in perception in the medical community. Sad but true.
I've seen it many times. I've had to tell providers that they were being manipulated for scheduled meds on more than a few occasions. Its never the bearded, pierced guy with face tattoos. It's people with status or positions of trust in the community that seem to not get looked at twice or the provider doesn't want to offend or alienate. There's other factors to consider also like did they run in the same circles, did there kids go to school together, belong to the same country club. I think these relationships can influence our perceptions of people . We can all be a little naive under the right circumstances.

 

[Porky1]

I still dont understand why parents did not immediately turn on security system and look for how kidnappers got into the home....and of course go to check on Burt...and why didnt the police look for entry in each and every room? And Papa Ramsey never mentioned window entry till later. Right...

Can Burt as a very smart boy have written the letter? "Faction", from one of his favorite Star Trek movie, First Contact?? And all of the other movie themes....almost like a child wrote that note IMO.

How frightening it would be having a potential intruder in the house (large house that wasn’t easy or quick to check every room) and protect your children/remaining child. I would ensure 3 of us were together in the same room while waiting for Police, unless you weren’t worried as there was never an intruder.

 

[Ponytale]

I still dont understand why parents did not immediately turn on security system and look for how kidnappers got into the home....and of course go to check on Burt...and why didnt the police look for entry in each and every room? And Papa Ramsey never mentioned window entry till later. Right...

Can Burt as a very smart boy have written the letter? "Faction", from one of his favorite Star Trek movie, First Contact?? And all of the other movie themes....almost like a child wrote that note IMO.

Logical explanation to me is that they knew there were no kidnappers to begin with. The way they both behaved that morning only points to the scenario that there was no intruder in their house. They were not afraid for them, for Burke, for JB. They did not care about the call that should have been their only hope to get their daughter back.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

I still dont understand why parents did not immediately turn on security system and look for how kidnappers got into the home....and of course go to check on Burt...and why didnt the police look for entry in each and every room? And Papa Ramsey never mentioned window entry till later. Right...

Can Burt as a very smart boy have written the letter? "Faction", from one of his favorite Star Trek movie, First Contact?? And all of the other movie themes....almost like a child wrote that note IMO.

Yes, and IDK either @ShadyLady …. IMO there was likely a lot of other activity occurring in the residence that evening. And if so, that didn’t leave time for other routine obvious things. And I won’t readily find links….. but IIRC there has long been some dispute as to where BR was earlier in the evening and possibly during the 911 call. (And now I’m not remembering if there is more than one 911 call.)

And IIRC I thought they were questions whether BR was downstairs at some point and then asked to go back upstairs or whether he was upstairs for the entire event and whether the father went to awaken him or not to alert of JBR being ‘missing’? Unfortunately, it seems that confusion and uncertainty have prevailed. And IMO that did not occur by accident.

There was also IIRC some speculation there might have been three voices heard when one of those 911 calls was made. And if so, one can infer that one of those three voices would sadly not have included JBR.

As others frequently say, four people entered the residence that evening or early morning. And by the next morning/day, only three remained. With that, in my opinion, that is all that needs to be known. MOO

 

[ShadyLady]

Logical explanation to me is that they knew there were no kidnappers to begin with. The way they both behaved that morning only points to the scenario that there was no intruder in their house. They were not afraid for them, for Burke, for JB. They did not care about the call that should have been their only hope to get their daughter back.

Yes, and how important would it have been to pick up the letter and read the whole thing several times IF YOU WANTED YOUR DAUGHTER BACK?????

First question I would have asked JR and PR....WHY didnt you read the letter and follow the instructions??

 

[CloudedTruth]

If he did suspect it, why wouldn’t he report it? In a town like Boulder, the Ramseys were not so rich or important that they could destroy his practice for reporting them. He could have blamed it on the pharmacist who kept filling prescriptions for infections. I think it’s possible he could have chosen not to report it, but what an unethical monster, if true.

The pediatricians I work with would not protect an influential family like this in the 90s or now. I would associate that type of behavior with a smaller town, with much richer people or with an earlier era, before mandatory reporting. Jmo

From the bits and pieces of what can be cobbled together about this part of the case, IMO the SA had not been going on all that long. We have the teachers that noted a change in JonBenet's demeanor that started about a month or so before the murder. We have the housekeeper's statements about Patsy becoming particularly moody about a month before the murder. We have the report of JonBenet becoming upset during the part on the 23rd and telling someone she didn't feel pretty. We have the odd circumstance of the 3 after hours calls made by someone in the house to Dr. Beuf in close succession to each other on either 12/7 or 12/17. Dr. Beuf recalls seeing JonBenet in his office for the last time in November.

SA often starts out with grooming. Touching, caressing that may very well seem innocent and loving especially coming from a loved one, a person that is trusted. It then escalates slowly from there. There probably weren't any physical outward signs, and to determine internal vaginal injury requires a pelvic exam done by a specialist and under anesthesia. I do think Dr. Beuf may have been a little lax on the front of his being so dismissive about the number of visits for recurring issues with JonBenet because it was the Ramseys. I have heard over and over again from parents that 27-30 visits in a 3 year period is definitely unusual, excessive and would've been a cause for concern. We also know that the very appearance conscious Patsy was not 100% truthful with the doctor when he asked general health questions about JonBenet. The fact that her bedwetting had progressed to a nightly event, coupled with her other toileting issues and hygiene issues should have been a red flag, however we do not know how forthcoming Patsy was about all of that.

And then there's the part that so many have gotten hung up on in this case, the facade that the Ramseys presented of a good Christian family who loved their children dearly and who could never be perceived as being capable of such a terrible crime. Lou Smit is a perfect example of that mindset. He became so convinced of their innocence, partly because of what he thought were shared "Christian values" he lost all objectivity, and instead of following evidence to find the truth it became all about proving the Ramsey's innocence at any cost.

I do think that some of Dr. Beuf's behavior after the murder crossed a line and he did not always act as professionally as he should have. Clearly he was motivated by the personal relationship that he had with the Ramseys. But I also think, and this is just my opinion, that he too may have fallen under their spell rather than being an active participant in covering up abuse. The experts that found the evidence of abuse post mortem were unable to pinpoint with certainty when the abuse started, with an estimate of approximately 10 days prior. May have been longer than that, but probably not by much.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Dr. Beuf did have a personal relationship with the Ramseys. John met him playing golf. They became friends. Dr. Beuf and his wife hosted the entire Ramsey family for dinner at the Beuf home a few times.

Dr. Beuf came to the Fernie’s house on the 26th and gave Patsy sedatives. He was also there on the 27th and told police they could not talk to her, she was sedated. He continued to prescribe her sedatives for quite some time even though as a pediatrician he was not her doctor.

It does appear that they had a personal relationship. Wouldn't given all of PRs health problems, she would have had her own doctors?
I will say back in the 90s, things were much looser when it came to writing prescriptions for someone who was not your patient. It was expected that you merely keep a chart with a note in it. This was especially common for URI and UTI type illnesses in the hospital I worked at. During flu season everyone hit up the pathologist in our department. No one would do that now.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

The JBR threads IMO are getting confusing and conflated perhaps? Maybe it is for a reason…… although I am now confused. There seems to be a considerable discussion about a Doctor Beuf also in a different thread on the case. And it might be related to pints in this thread? MOO

Post in thread 'Colorado Little Miss Christmas 12/17/96'
Colorado Little Miss Christmas 12/17/96

 

[CloudedTruth]

It does appear that they had a personal relationship. Wouldn't given all if PRs health problems, she have had her own doctors?
I will say back in the 90s, things were much looser when it came to writing prescriptions for someone who was not your patient. It was expected that you merely keep a chart with a note in it. This was especially common for URI and UTI type illnesses in the hospital I worked at. During flu season everyone hit up the pathologist in our department. No one would do that now.

Yes, Patsy had her own doctors.

I do know that things were looser in those days regarding prescriptions. But there was a code of ethics about doctors writing prescriptions for friends or family. It could be done in an emergency situation when necessary, but it was expected that at the soonest opportunity the person needing the medication would see their own doctor or seek out a doctor for further prescriptions. Dr. Beuf very clearly violated that code of ethics and were that to happen in 2024, he would've been called before the board and at the very least disciplined, and possibly had his authority to write prescriptions for controlled substances suspended.

I would go so far as to say that actions such as his at the time is one of the reasons much stricter regulations and policies with regard to controlled substance prescriptions have been put in place. Of course patient abuse was also a factor. but one would expect under the circumstances, that Dr. Beuf as a responsible physician who was aware that Patsy had undergone cancer treatment and had other doctors, should have told her she needed to see her own doctor who would've had the history of previous medications prescribed, as being appropriate to ensure that valium would not interfere with any medication(s) she may have also been taking at the time.

 

[Tower]

From the bits and pieces of what can be cobbled together about this part of the case, IMO the SA had not been going on all that long. We have the teachers that noted a change in JonBenet's demeanor that started about a month or so before the murder. We have the housekeeper's statements about Patsy becoming particularly moody about a month before the murder. We have the report of JonBenet becoming upset during the part on the 23rd and telling someone she didn't feel pretty. We have the odd circumstance of the 3 after hours calls made by someone in the house to Dr. Beuf in close succession to each other on either 12/7 or 12/17. Dr. Beuf recalls seeing JonBenet in his office for the last time in November.

SA often starts out with grooming. Touching, caressing that may very well seem innocent and loving especially coming from a loved one, a person that is trusted. It then escalates slowly from there. There probably weren't any physical outward signs, and to determine internal vaginal injury requires a pelvic exam done by a specialist and under anesthesia. I do think Dr. Beuf may have been a little lax on the front of his being so dismissive about the number of visits for recurring issues with JonBenet because it was the Ramseys. I have heard over and over again from parents that 27-30 visits in a 3 year period is definitely unusual, excessive and would've been a cause for concern. We also know that the very appearance conscious Patsy was not 100% truthful with the doctor when he asked general health questions about JonBenet. The fact that her bedwetting had progressed to a nightly event, coupled with her other toileting issues and hygiene issues should have been a red flag, however we do not know how forthcoming Patsy was about all of that.

And then there's the part that so many have gotten hung up on in this case, the facade that the Ramseys presented of a good Christian family who loved their children dearly and who could never be perceived as being capable of such a terrible crime. Lou Smit is a perfect example of that mindset. He became so convinced of their innocence, partly because of what he thought were shared "Christian values" he lost all objectivity, and instead of following evidence to find the truth it became all about proving the Ramsey's innocence at any cost.

I do think that some of Dr. Beuf's behavior after the murder crossed a line and he did not always act as professionally as he should have. Clearly he was motivated by the personal relationship that he had with the Ramseys. But I also think, and this is just my opinion, that he too may have fallen under their spell rather than being an active participant in covering up abuse. The experts that found the evidence of abuse post mortem were unable to pinpoint with certainty when the abuse started, with an estimate of approximately 10 days prior. May have been longer than that, but probably not by much.

I forget some of the details of this case. Thanks for the reminder. I now remember reading the behavior changes seemed to be fairly recent and that makes sense to me, in light of everything else that happened.