IL IL - Debbie Fijan, 10, DuPage County, 11 Feb 1966 - #2

[Kayo - 55]

"The secrets of the Grand Jury shall not be revealed, except by the Prosecutor solely in the performance of his or her duties, when the Court directs otherwise in the interest of Justice, or when a law authorizes disclosure".

"In the interest of Justice", more than 600 months, and still no justice for Debbie and her family. I firmly believe that "the secrets" held, and the list of those those that served on the Grand Jury for Debbie, would show a great deal of protection for LS ("cover-up"?), and the George K. (Klein Road) family. I'm also quite sure that if Debbie's body was ever exhumed, that DNA from LS would be found under her fingernails.

 

[Kayo - 55]

i. "Living Schofield, married Living Saunders".

Does anyone know if/when the above took place? Location? Announcements? Other pertinent information?

 

[Cubby]

*I replied awhile back and the post was lost...... Anyhoo, back to those thoughts. Everything in DuPage is close to the vest (and even close to the vest is an understatement.) I don't think anyone in the DPCSO is scared of LS so to speak in regards to any potential future charges regarding Debbie's case, I just think their bar to file charges might exceed that bar in other jurisdictions.

I don't know if he still has relatives in IL or not. Unless someone is named a person of interest or suspect they can't be sleuthed per tos.

Some of the more recent posts make me wonder if anyone recalls noticing any scratches or bruising on LS in the days following Debbie's murder.

A few other thoughts. I'm still a bit uneasy about the neighbor and his girlfriend who found Debbie. I wish we knew exactly where AV was between the time Debbie was last seen in the school yard and the time her mother arrived at the school looking for her.

 

[Cubby]

Continued from above: Have any of you seen the movie "Ladybug Ladybug"? The B & W movie was set in the 1960's, and it centered around a small country grade school, and how the students, teachers, and school Principal reacted to an air raid siren that went off in the school. It was very frightening to some of the students, even though it was later determined to be a "false alarm". I thought it had striking similarities to Benjamin, and how the teachers handled the news about Debbie's murder; and how they conveyed the news to the students in an effort to protect them.

I've never seen it, but will have to put it on my to do list.

On another note, I have heard LS left the Catholic Church. It just recently dawned on me that may have occured as a result of the Catholic Church requiring anyone working with children to take a few hour class, "Protecting God's Children." Part of this process includes a background check and a questionnaire which asks if you have ever been accused of abusing a child. I think that class and questionnaire would have been rather difficult for LS to participate.

It also often crosses my mind that while there might not be a legal requirement for LS to respond to being suspected of murdering Debbie, there IS a moral obligation to see that a child murderer is held responsible for his or her actions. That moral obligation and a half century of evasive and/or unanswered questions , leaving the water muddied, the mirror fogged, just blows my mind. How does anyone turn their back on an unsolved child murder?

 

[Kayo - 55]

If I recall, LS's first wife MAS left the Catholic Church also (see # 702 above). What I found to be "alarming" is that MAS is not buried at St. Catherine's Cemetery in Genoa City, IL; although the index of the cemetery might need updating, or maybe the individual has the choice whether or not to show their name in the index(?). I believe LS's mother EKS is buried at St. Catherine's. Joanna S., who drowned on her 2nd birthday in 1978, is buried at St. Catherine's Cemetery; although LS is the only person listed on the headstone. Two family deaths (father & youngest daughter) as a result of drowning in less than 12 years is almost "hard to believe". LS made 2 donations to St. Catherine's Church in 2006 & 2007 in the amounts of $2K each. It was the "LS Award" and was given to young teen-age girls. Hmm......... LS has "stretched the truth" (a.k.a. lied) before/after Debbie's death; even before Quincy University, Pontifical College Josephinum, and St. Edward's High School (Elgin, IL). My great-grandmother once told me that: "you need to tell 100 lies, just to get out of one". LS seems to have applied that "rule" to the majority of his life.

 

[Kayo - 55]

As most of you know, LS was born in 1939. Between 1939 and 1964 LS attended St. Edward's High School, Pontifical College Josephinum in Ohio, and Quincy University; all private schools. PCJ in Ohio is the same school that Cardinal Bernard L. attended - at/near the same time that LS was a student there. I don't understand why some of these "dots" weren't connected after 02/11/1966. Everyone knew that LS burned his " magazines", and even admitted that he "could have done it". As suggested before in previous posts, Debbie knew about LS's magazines, and quite possibly some of his "behavior" (e.g. "playing with Rosie Palm and her 5 sisters"). It's very unfortunate and sad that LS didn't seek some professional help before 02/11/1966.

 

[Kayo - 55]

Please correct me if I'm wrong:
1) Someone witnessed Debbie getting into a car close to the intersection of St. Charles Rd. & Fair Oaks on 02/11/1966, the day she was murdered.
2) This witness apparently was able to identify the color (make?) of the car, although it would have been "dark" the time she was abducted.
There's no way that Debbie would have gotten into a car unless she knew the driver of that car. If Debbie had been forced into a stranger's car, she most likely would have screamed, and her screams would have been heard by the supposed witness that was close to the Benjamin Schoolyard at the time. The killer was from the area, and it was someone Debbie knew. The clock is ticking, LS is about 78 years old if still living. Why can't the DPCSO bring LS in for further questioning. What are they afraid of??

 

[Cubby]

We don't know for certain if Debbie was aware of the LS kept in his desk. The theory she caught him doing or viewing something is speculation. IMO, because he was intent on hiding it and lying about it. And because of the stab wounds to her eyes.

The witness wasn't near the school yard. The witness, had driven through the intersection at Fair Oaks and St. Charles Rd and looked eastbound to see a girl about the age and size of Debbie wearing a brown coat similar to Debbie's and talking to a man in a white car.

LS lawyered up which ended the opportunity for LE to question him. To date he doesn't appear to be interested in clarifying the discrepancies in his stories to police, or to see justice for Debbie if there isn't reason for him to be the prime suspect in her murder.

Lies by omission are still lies.

 

[Cubby]

Apparently LS did drive down Lies Rd on the evening of Debbie's murder.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/...cle/debbie-killing-suspect-held-to-grand-jury

Interesting the above artcle mentions LS'S attorneys argued police had not determined a motive. IMO a possible motive is pretty clear, keeping a addiction secret.

 

[Kayo - 55]

Thank you Cubby for the clarification regarding the witness. I was using "close" in the relative sense. Besides Debbie, I had 2 other classmates that lived in the same subdivision that Debbie lived in (Littlewood at the time?). At that time, a bunch of us thought Littlewood was close, along with The Olde North Pancake House. We'd go to the OLPH after school sometimes. The distance from Benjamin to Fair Oaks seemed like a "stones throw away". I think it's <750'.

As you most likely know, Detectives are always asking questions of any potential suspect based upon theory and speculation. Getting an answer is their main objective, no matter how it's achieved. In my opinion, this is what makes a good detective. I could care less if it's "coercion", "putting words in someones mouth", etc. If LS can initially claim that he "could have done it", then retract his statement, someone wasn't doing their job and didn't connect the dots. If Debbie's cold case is still open, as DPCSO continues to claim, there's no reason why LS can't be brought in for new/further questioning. What are they afraid of??

 

[Cubby]

The witness, according to one of the Chicago Tribune articles previously linked was the husband of another teacher at Benjamin. That teacher and her husband lived right off the street Debbie lived on.

I'm trying to visualize where LS might have taken Debbie in relation to the school, her home, the witnesses home, and the S family farm.IIRC LS was home by 6 pm? Where was he during the 40 minutes or so between the time Debbie left the school yard and the time he received the call Debbie was missing? It shouldn't have taken him more than 10 minutes, if that, to get home from the school.

I would also like to know how long AV and his gf where searching for Debbie before they found her. I often wonder why AV or his gf haven't found us here and joined in the discussion.

So many questions...... I wonder if LS's clothing was ever tested for Debbie's blood.

 

[Cubby]

Maybe now that LS is out of state DPCSO simply doesn't want to fly out to his current location until they have more info?

 

[Kayo - 55]

You are correct Cubby, and "how bout those Cubs". The teacher from Benjamin you referenced lived on Morningside. Wynn Ave., the street Debbie lived on, turns into Morningside as you're traveling west on Wynn then around the bend heading south. I think the teacher lived closer to St. Charles & Morningside, just west of Fair Oaks.

You're right about the timetable also. Again, why weren't these "dots" connected when LS was questioned? Didn't LS's wife burn his clothing? If I recall, there was a search warrant issued for JS and his property - denied access?? Was a search warrant ever issued for LS's home/property?

 

[Kayo - 55]

Do any of the DPCSO Detectives follow Debbie's "websleuth's" site? They could easily glean some input and info. if they did.

 

[Cubby]

Do any of the DPCSO Detectives follow Debbie's "websleuth's" site? They could easily glean some input and info. if they did.

Yes, DPCSO is aware of WS and they do follow our discussion. Though, I am not aware of how often they read here.

 

[Cubby]

I have to go back and look at thread 1. I'm trying to remember if there were any empty structures on the S family farm property where someone could have taken Debbie. If so, where were those structures located on the property?

Were any of LS's neighbors on Gary Rd questioned as to what time he arrived home that day? IIRC, he was at his home on Gary when he received the call that Debbie was missing. If he is responsible, he'd have to try and account for it taking longer than normal to get home.

Yes, according to msm Mrs. LS turned over burnt clothing, which, iirc she tried to burn along with the . (per ls's request). I'm trying to out myself in the shoes of Mrs. LS. My spouse comes home and due to an investigation into the murder of a 10 year old student of his asks me to burn his and clothing he wore at the time this 10 yr old was murdered. What about that would not send out loud brain hurting red flags? It baffles me that she agree to comply with his request.


Kayo, any speculation/thoughts on which route LS might have taken home the night of Debbie's murder? What intersected with Lies between Fair Oaks and Gary? If he went westbound on St. Charles past Fair Oaks to Klein, wouldn't he have risked being seen by the Teacher and her husband who lived on Morningside? If he went north on Fair Oaks and passed Wynn wouldn't he have risked being seen by Debbie's mom?

When did Mrs. LS first become aware of the on the night of Debbie's murder? When he first arrived home before he got the call or after he went back to the school to use the incinerator?

We've had LE post here at WS on other cases. I wish DPCSO would join us here and make a public plea for additional information regarding Debbie's case and how to do so anonymously. All these years later it must be a heavy burden for those with knowledge of this secret, and I think more than one person has answers which could help solve this case.

And yes, how about those Cubs? It's just now starting to not seem so surreal. Though, I admit I wasnt as excited about a world series win than I am when some of the cases I follow are solved. Justice now comes first in my heart when it comes to my hobbies. Debbie's case is high on the list.

 

[Kayo - 55]

All good questions/comments Cubby. I'm not sure if there were other structures on JS's property. Maybe that information could be obtained through the DPC Forest Preserve - FOIA for clarification if important. If I recall, the JS property was sold to the Forest Preserve in 1975(?) for about $675K. I have no idea if any of LS's neighbors were questioned. LS changed his story numerous times (e.g. route/roads traveled on 02/11/1966, out "checking the roads", etc.). "Out checking the roads" - how ridiculous and unbelievable. LS must have been coached. Temperatures that evening on 02/11 were above freezing, no frost in the ground, and no snow/rain. I've always wondered if JS didn't send out a "crew" on 02/12/1966 to repair the ruts along Lies where Debbie was found. The 02/11 photo from the Chicago Tribune shows the road damage in the R.O.W., north side of Lies. Doesn't Cnty. Farm Rd. intersect with Lies before Gary? The majority of the land north of Benjamin back in the 1960's was "farm fields"; with the exception of the subdivision that Debbie lived in.

When did LS join the search for Debbie? How could he have been driving around, wasting time, inspecting the roads, maybe even as far as Route 59; although I don't think Rt. 59 is part of Wayne Township. LS's entire timeline on 02/11/1966 between 5:30 pm and the time Debbie was found is nothing but lies. The simple fact that the coroner stated that Debbie "could have been alive for 2-3 more hrs. after she was left along Lies Rd." is both disturbing and extremely heart wrenching to me. None of it to this day adds up.Who in their "right mind" would believe any of LS's stories, and why weren't the dots connected. Who has their clothes burned by their wife, claims innocence, and convinces law enforcement to believe them?? DUH!! Quite possibly - pure speculation, the State's Prosecuting Attorney was under-qualified and inexperienced to handle a murder trial during the Grand Jury trial. I don't think LS's "plan" (if guilty) was made at the last minute. The only thing that LS & MAS were concerned about was protecting the "family name" (Klein), and their potential inheritance. If I recall, MAS worked f or the NIU Law Library after they moved out of the area, and before they moved to KC. NOT A COINCIDENCE!! I would be curious to know when MAS worked for the NIU Law Library - late 1960's/1970's? LS & MAS's youngest daughter drowned on her second birthday in 1978(?), and she is buried at the St. Catherine's Church cemetery of Genoa, IL.

Can anyone convince me that the original suspect isn't still to this day the correct suspect after 50+ years?? They "had their man" on 02/11/1966.

 

[Cubby]

Here is a map of Wayne Township:

http://www.waynetwp-il.org/dsp/map.htm

County Farm and Gary can both be seen on the above map. Driving eastbound on Lies from Fair Oaks, County Farm intersects with Lies before Gary. Kuhn also intersects with Lies before Gary.

One thing I don't recall being mentioned in MSM is whether or not impressions from LS'S tires matched the impressions taken on St. Charles where Debbie's boot marks indicated she left the road and (presumably) entered a white vehicle.

Iirc, one of the many articles linked indicated the tire impressions taken from where she was found on Lies matched the tire impressions found on St. Charles. (or am I confusing the boot marks matching from the swings to the spot they ended on St. Charles?)

I don't think we know what time LS joined the search.

Wayne township goes pretty far west. IDK how quickly one could get from Fair Oaks to the western border of Wayne township back in 1966.

 

[Cubby]

I don't think LE believed him. A grand jury refused to indict.

I just recently noticed Benjamin is a middle school now. I wonder when that happened.

As far as structures on LS'S property, I was thinking of possible crime scene locations. Was there somewhere he could have hidden her on the property without his family or neighbors aware of them?

 

[Cubby]

Oh, forgot to add, I have wondered if he was coached by MAS, especially after reading the quote from the sheriff's office asking if his wife told him to keep his times straight. There could be various reasons behind MAS making that statement.

He could always clear these questions up through an attorney. Kind of like how attorneys speak on behalf of a family in various criminal cases.