IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #2

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  • #281
http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/544/article/p2p-84430226/


These are exerpts from the above article.


Publicly, the spokesman for the investigation, Detective Christopher Covelli of the Lake County sheriff's office, repeated Monday that authorities are looking at "every theory" but that they are "still pursuing this as a homicide."


When asked what evidence police have that suggests that the shooting was a homicide, Covelli said, "we have the call that was made (by Gliniewicz) and the unknown DNA donor at the scene."


JMO, this does not sound like significant evidence to me.

They seem to be hanging this investigation on the unknown DNA which to me isn't very sound unless this DNA come from somewhere like the gun trigger and even then it is possible it got there by legit means.

If they found fresh urine somewhere or some article of clothing it could have been from kids having sex out there the night before. I am eager to hear what this DNA is and where it came from.
 
  • #282
Again, it depends on the dog and their training. For instance, some dogs are especially trained to 'hit' on the smell of gun powder. If a suspect did grab the Lt's weapon and then shot him with his own gun, a dog trained to detect that residue would have little problem following the trail to a hiding suspect.

I've watched shows where dogs have located spent shell casings that were out in the weather for several days.

There is a reason this manhunt has deescalated as quickly as it has.

A spent shell casing has far more gunpowder in and around it than someone who fired two rounds from a gun. And that's assuming that this type of dog you saw on a TV show was actually present at the scene.
 
  • #283
Also, do we know if he would have needed to scale that fence to get to the other side? The fence was closed right? None of this makes a whole lot of sense, does it?

I can understand how easy it can be to lose track of some of the details hidden in all of these threads. A previous poster mentioned that the fence is not totally enclosed. One can easily run around it from the left.
 
  • #284
Maybe he is one of us. Is Joseph A. Battaglia out there anyone?

As much talk as there has been about cop suicide and cover-up on this thread in the last week, I can see where an unstable grumpy old ex-cop might get to thinkin' about it too hard.
 
  • #285
Initial officers on scene heard the final gunshot, so it stands to reason that whoever was there (supposing it was a murder), would have focused on escaping without getting killed by responding officers at that point.

I don't believe anyone heard any shots fired. Does anyone have any proof to back this up?
 
  • #286
I don't believe anyone heard any shots fired. Does anyone have any proof to back this up?

Nobody heard any shots fired. The owner over at Precision Chrome said there was too much plant noise for them to be able to hear anything, and they were the closest to the scene.
 
  • #287
I don't believe anyone heard any shots fired. Does anyone have any proof to back this up?
Pretty sure I read it somewhere. Maybe the story got updated. My apologies.
 
  • #288
A spent shell casing has far more gunpowder in and around it than someone who fired two rounds from a gun. And that's assuming that this type of dog you saw on a TV show was actually present at the scene.

According to reports, there were more than 40 K9 units involved in the 'manhunt.' The odds are pretty good that one or more of those dogs were trained to hit on gun powder residue.

It's true that we don't know what we don't know. I have made my conclusions based on the evidence that we have so far and that includes the lack of any confirmation or evidence of the "three suspects." Ballistics and a good investigation will show whether or not the Lt. had residue on his hand, whether other prints or dna was on his weapon, whether the struggle was staged or not.

I have already spent more time on this case than I intended to. Clearly it is wide open enough for everyone to believe what they want to believe. I wish everyone the best of luck in your searches. As for me, I'm going to shift back to some of my other interests. This thread is wearing me out.
 
  • #289
I think that assuming this person was at least semi-intelligent is probably a little more reasonable than assuming this "not-so-smart" cop came up with this elaborate suicide plan to make it look like a murder... Instead of doing something way more straightforward like just "losing control" of his car while responding to an emergency, similar to how most police die every year.

And I'm not sure about the veracity of some of your claims. If he took his vest off and shot it, the round would likely penetrate straight through it. Where would he have even done this at, to have been unnoticed, shooting at a bulletproof vest? Wouldn't it be clear from a lack of bruising and tissue injury that this is what happened? The coroner seems fairly certain he was shot in the vest.

Also, how does shooting a gun multiple times "at a distance" have anything to do with eliminating stippling and powder burns? If anything, that seems would cause MORE residue as more and more carbon and gunpowder is being built up in the barrel.

And that still doesn't negate that he'd have GSR all over him/his hands if he was shooting himself from arm's length.

Then you have the question of only two shots being fired, supposedly not from contact range, meaning his arms would have to be outstretched. How do you practically aim a shot like that, ensuring it goes in between your vest and body, to cause a devastating enough wound that wouldn't be recoverable from if your backup arrives in time? Especially after already having shot yourself in the stomach once? That would be a feat in and of itself.

This is why I feel like the fatal shot may have been self inflicted but accidental. Suppose (for publicity, sympathy, or?) the Lt. was only trying to fake a struggle and make it look like he took two shots to his vest. Suppose he wanted to make it look like the 2nd shot came from an odd angle as if he were on the ground?

Then suppose that 2nd shot accidentally missed his vest. Like you said, it would not be an easy shot to aim.

This why (very early on) I asked if the Lt's hands were checked for residue.
 
  • #290
From viewing some of the Explorer videos on his FB page, I got the impression that Lt. Gliniewicz really knew his stuff about defusing volatile situations. He was one tough cookie. And I can even imagine him giving a team like the Navy SEAL's a run for their money. In these videos, he's teaching young teens how to barge into potentially dangerous places.

I don't seem to view him as the type that would be overtaken in such a position in which a suspect would successfully acquire his gun and shoot him with it.

In fact, from viewing some of these videos, I wouldn't see him as the kind of person that would have put himself into a dangerous situation like this to begin with. He should have waited for backup before proceeding. That's what he would have taught his Explorer pupils. JMO
 
  • #291
I think that assuming this person was at least semi-intelligent is probably a little more reasonable than assuming this "not-so-smart" cop came up with this elaborate suicide plan to make it look like a murder... Instead of doing something way more straightforward like just "losing control" of his car while responding to an emergency, similar to how most police die every year.

And I'm not sure about the veracity of some of your claims. If he took his vest off and shot it, the round would likely penetrate straight through it. Where would he have even done this at, to have been unnoticed, shooting at a bulletproof vest? Wouldn't it be clear from a lack of bruising and tissue injury that this is what happened? The coroner seems fairly certain he was shot in the vest.

Also, how does shooting a gun multiple times "at a distance" have anything to do with eliminating stippling and powder burns? If anything, that seems would cause MORE residue as more and more carbon and gunpowder is being built up in the barrel.

And that still doesn't negate that he'd have GSR all over him/his hands if he was shooting himself from arm's length.

Then you have the question of only two shots being fired, supposedly not from contact range, meaning his arms would have to be outstretched. How do you practically aim a shot like that, ensuring it goes in between your vest and body, to cause a devastating enough wound that wouldn't be recoverable from if your backup arrives in time? Especially after already having shot yourself in the stomach once? That would be a feat in and of itself.
Second part:
Okay now onto the Gun powder Residue and stippling from a homicide standpoint and why it can be convoluted.

Assume he fired at least one shot at the suspects (we don't know) he would have gun powder residue on his hands. It would not be able to be determined when that GPR got on his hands. It is possible he had the gun in his hands and during a struggle another person was able to get control of his hands and the first bullet went off and hit him in the vest. They continued to struggled and the gun was taken from him and the final shot killed him.

The stippling would be a mess if there was a struggle. Two people would stop the pattern spray. The GPR on hands would be altered from two people hands but Gliniewicz would still look like he fired the weapon when he didn't really. The suspect would have a little GPR on his hands but not the same as Gliniewicz. But after shooting Gliniewicz a second time he would have GPR that would negate all previous GPR. any stippling on the suspect would change from the second shot and depending how close again the supsect was to Gliniewicz at the second shot it would mess with the stippling of the first shot which was already altered by the struggle and the close quarters.

And this is all dependent on whether they properly gathered forensics at the scene which I am highly doubtful of. Also some of this speculation requires a thought towards suicide and not homicide which isn't where the first investigation was headed so they may have lost forensics.

And let's not forget some people think it may have been an accidental shooting or even a suicide when he didn't expect to actually kill himself but only injure himself...
 
  • #292
  • #293
  • #294
From viewing some of the Explorer videos on his FB page, I got the impression that Lt. Gliniewicz really knew his stuff about defusing volatile situations. He was one tough cookie. And I can even imagine him giving a team like the Navy SEAL's a run for their money. In these videos, he's teaching young teens how to barge into potentially dangerous places.

I don't seem to view him as the type that would be overtaken in such a position in which a suspect would successfully acquire his gun and shoot him with it.

In fact, from viewing some of these videos, I wouldn't see him as the kind of person that would have put himself into a dangerous situation like this to begin with. He should have waited for backup before proceeding. That's what he would have taught his Explorer pupils. JMO

Exactly.
 
  • #295
This is why I feel like the fatal shot may have been self inflicted but accidental. Suppose (for publicity, sympathy, or?) the Lt. was only trying to fake a struggle and make it look like he took two shots to his vest. Suppose he wanted to make it look like the 2nd shot came from an odd angle as if he were on the ground?

Then suppose that 2nd shot accidentally missed his vest. Like you said, it would not be an easy shot to aim.

This why (very early on) I asked if the Lt's hands were checked for residue.
I suppose that's a possibility, but I'm not sure it's very likely. I don't really see the motive behind doing something like that, as well-liked and respected as he seemingly was.

I can believe that with the chief of police resigning days before, and the strange way this investigation is being conducted, that maybe some people within the PD dealt with a "problem" themselves.
 
  • #296
Nobody heard any shots fired. The owner over at Precision Chrome said there was too much plant noise for them to be able to hear anything, and they were the closest to the scene.

Which makes a really nice place to off yourself while being close to your coworkers to come to the scene....
 
  • #297
I think that assuming this person was at least semi-intelligent is probably a little more reasonable than assuming this "not-so-smart" cop came up with this elaborate suicide plan to make it look like a murder... Instead of doing something way more straightforward like just "losing control" of his car while responding to an emergency, similar to how most police die every year.

And I'm not sure about the veracity of some of your claims. If he took his vest off and shot it, the round would likely penetrate straight through it. Where would he have even done this at, to have been unnoticed, shooting at a bulletproof vest? Wouldn't it be clear from a lack of bruising and tissue injury that this is what happened? The coroner seems fairly certain he was shot in the vest.

Also, how does shooting a gun multiple times "at a distance" have anything to do with eliminating stippling and powder burns? If anything, that seems would cause MORE residue as more and more carbon and gunpowder is being built up in the barrel.

And that still doesn't negate that he'd have GSR all over him/his hands if he was shooting himself from arm's length.

Then you have the question of only two shots being fired, supposedly not from contact range, meaning his arms would have to be outstretched. How do you practically aim a shot like that, ensuring it goes in between your vest and body, to cause a devastating enough wound that wouldn't be recoverable from if your backup arrives in time? Especially after already having shot yourself in the stomach once? That would be a feat in and of itself.

Do you have a link to the bruising info? Yes, if he shot himself in the vest while wearing it he should have a bruise unless it was a glancing bullet that hit his phone clip as was reported in some reports I read. Where would he have shot his vest while not wearing it? Anywhere in the country? In my back yard I can shoot vests all day long (not that I do but I do target shoot). Just saying it isn't like you need some secret hidy hole to shoot things in this country. We are all just assuming he actually shot his vest that morning which we don't really know yet. But if the coroner did say he had bruising and the bruising was indicative of a very fresh wound then okay he just did it.

Stippling - It is difficult to explain on a forum with words. I will try.
I shoot my gun at my house at my vest. GP stippling is not on vest because I was far enough away. Not on hands now because some days have passed or I was able to wash enough off that later GP Residue doesn't show it. Or I shoot enough later rounds that the first round doesn't matter for GP residue on hand.

I go to another scene and unload several rounds. I now have quite a bit of GPR on my hands and stippling on my clothing. Standard stance for shooting would be different than shooting downward into torso so stippling would be different. But lets say I shoot while lying on my back. Stippling changes. GP falls in a pattern onto my chest which is different that it would be if I were standing up to shoot at a suspect.

He may have been kneeling to shoot at distance and to shoot himself. Pattern would change again. And all this is dependent on whether the forensics was gathered and properly analyzed for something other than homicide.

How do you practice an aim? Well I don't think you practice a suicide aim. But assuming they preserved the crime scene which I doubt they did they should have been able to determine which angle the gun was when the final bullet hit his torso. Whether upside down, sideways, the distance etc.... It wouldn't be too difficult with a standard vest to take your handgun and do it one of two ways. Either straight down from under your chin, holding gun parallel with body and shooting (assuming he was right handed) down and towards the heart to the left away from the right hand holding the gun. This would insure a pretty good hole in the chest, most likely hit the heart and lungs, major artery and wearing the vest may have even helped contain the energy but not sure of the science there.

Or he could have shot himself through the armpit hole in the vest. My only problem with the armpit hole in the downward trajectory doesn't hit the heart or lungs and would leave it more open for him surviving. All of this would leave GPR but if he shot already his hands are covered in it so not much help there. But stippling on the vest would show an awkward angle.


I am going to break this into another post to explain the GPR and stippling from the homicide standpoint.
 
  • #298
Which makes a really nice place to off yourself while being close to your coworkers to come to the scene....
Even if the responding officers heard the two shots, what difference would it have made? I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to insinuate.
 
  • #299
From viewing some of the Explorer videos on his FB page, I got the impression that Lt. Gliniewicz really knew his stuff about defusing volatile situations. He was one tough cookie. And I can even imagine him giving a team like the Navy SEAL's a run for their money. In these videos, he's teaching young teens how to barge into potentially dangerous places.

I don't seem to view him as the type that would be overtaken in such a position in which a suspect would successfully acquire his gun and shoot him with it.

In fact, from viewing some of these videos, I wouldn't see him as the kind of person that would have put himself into a dangerous situation like this to begin with. He should have waited for backup before proceeding. That's what he would have taught his Explorer pupils. JMO

Even the best can be surprised, blindsided and overtaken. Especially if they think it is a minor infraction type scenario. And if someone came at him by surprise, and put their own gun to his head, he'd probably give up his weapon, knowing back up is on the way.

I think it is possible that he was chasing some young people that he was familiar with and so he followed them, but was not aware the third person was an armed fleeing felon, who was hiding and waiting for him.

I got the feeling from his videos that he was the kind of person that would put himself into danger. JMO
 
  • #300
No offense but everyone has to fight with insurance to pay out after a traumatic event. It is an insurers job to weed out false claims or eventually all our rates go up and the insurer files bankruptsy and pays no one. If an insurer didn't like the idea of rhe half hour before or after they would just put a clause in the contract saying it didn't apply. In most cases it isn't worth the fight if the dept is going to claim duty hours.

Oh no offense taken at all! I totally think that fraud needs to be weeded out asap- and there is so much of it that goes on that goes un-detected- eg small scale stuff done by many people across the country- like ER visits to get painkillers- that jacks up rates and it's just absolutely ridiculous.
 
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