IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #2

[Keefer]

Was the pepper spray ever found? At the beginning of this case it was reportedly missing. Could it have been used to put the dogs off of a trail?

I think some people think they can spray pepper spray n there hands and feet to elude dogs. Hunters will often mask their scent with deer urine. I don't know if it works on deer much less dogs. My dogs will often roll in deer scat, I think it's an instinct to mask their scent.

 

[katydid23]

There are instances particularly when drug dog handlers have been shown to "alert" to a vehicle or person when the dog didn't really alert but was responding to a finger command by the handler. They then use the alert as reason to search the vehicle.

This is where dogs fall down because humans have to interpret their behavior in court and you can't cross examine a dog.

But if a dog is trained to smell something it can smell it pretty well through and around a lot of stuff. It is the handlers job to keep him on task and figure out where the dog wants to go.

I don't know what anyone in this case would gain by making their dogs not follow the path of the three suspects.

What about the recent case of the two escaped killers hiding in the woods in upstate NY? How many trained K-9's did they have on their trail? I'd say quite a few. And they failed in the tracking department. Those guys were running through the woods from cabin to cabin and never got trailed successfully, in spite of the tremendous resources trying to sniff them out.

ETA:

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-83885741/

D’Amico said Matt and Sweat were believed to have used pepper to throw off their scent, making it difficult for police dogs to track them.

At various points, officials warned that the killers might be headed for Vermont, Pennsylvania, Canada or Mexico.

It seems the pair may have never left upstate New York, where jittery residents were only partially comforted by the hordes of law enforcement blocking roads and scouring forests.

 

[cady]

I answered this way earlier so I will happily answer again.
The pepper spray would not have stopped the dogs. If anything the person who was sprayed or did the spraying would be able to be followed easier because of that scent now on him.

I don't know though if the spray was used. It was reportedly found though.

After being reportedly "stripped" from CG, along with his weapon. JMO

 

[DexterMorgan]

Sorry to say. But a dog needs a scent to follow. So what item was used to have the dogs follow the scent?

I don't think the perp left a piece of clothing behind which would allow LE to give to the dogs to track.

So the dogs that follows scents are not going to be useful unless they have a scent to go on. So unless they are cadaver or drug dogs; they will not be useful to track suspects without their handler providing the dogs the sample of the scent that they are suppose to follow. Jmo.

 

[vestigare]

What about the recent case of the two escaped killers hiding in the woods in upstate NY? How many trained K-9's did they have on their trail? I'd say quite a few. And they failed in the tracking department. Those guys were running through the woods from cabin to cabin and never got trailed successfully, in spite of the tremendous resources trying to sniff them out.

Actually, they tracked them quite a bit with the dogs from the beginning from when they exited the sewer etc... but because of the terrain and the head start it just didn't work out.

Dogs aren't superbeings. And your example isn't the same scenario at all.

This was a small area where three people had been there less than a hour previously, and where no scent from (what we can determine and what we have heard) was ever picked up at all. It isn't as if we are discussing they lost the scent at the side of the road or after 3 miles.

 

[Tillicum]

How soon were the helicopters brought in? Before or after the dogs got there? Helicopters can diffuse the scent to the point a dog can't find it in a matter of seconds.

 

[vestigare]

Sorry to say. But a dog needs a scent to follow. So what item was used to have the dogs follow the scent?

I don't think the perp left a piece of clothing behind which would allow LE to give to the dogs to track.

So the dogs that follows scents are not going to be useful unless they have a scent to go on. So unless they are cadaver or drug dogs; they will not be useful to track suspects without their handler providing the dogs the sample of the scent that they are suppose to follow. Jmo.

Dogs don't need a scent from an article. They can be told to just follow any scent until the handler determines the scent is not useful. They would have started at any radiating scent trail out from his body and worked from there. Then probably grid patterned around following scents. Most would have been proven to be animals pretty quick. Others would have been first responders etc.... They would have been able to find a scent leaving the area and that would have been the one they would have focused on the most likely to be one of their suspects.

 

[vestigare]

How soon were the helicopters brought in? Before or after the dogs got there? Helicopters can diffuse the scent to the point a dog can't find it in a matter of seconds.

I don't agree with that necessarily.

 

[Keefer]

Dogs don't need a scent from an article. They can be told to just follow any scent until the handler determines the scent is not useful. They would have started at any radiating scent trail out from his body and worked from there. Then probably grid patterned around following scents. Most would have been proven to be animals pretty quick. Others would have been first responders etc.... They would have been able to find a scent leaving the area and that would have been the one they would have focused on the most likely to be one of their suspects.

So, it could more likely be human error rather than the dogs? That is the handler not having the time or information necessary to allow the dog to do its job?

 

[Montjoy]

So, it could more likely be human error rather than the dogs? That is the handler not having the time or information necessary to allow the dog to do its job?

I think the greatest likelihood is that the salt and pepper trio were never at the scene.

 

[Walker007]

I prefer not to put my anonymity at risk by going into detail. The point I was trying to make earlier is that there are many conditions that can thwart an excellent dog's progress or success whether S&R, HR, air/ground scent, drugs or explosives IMO.

I have to agree here. I for one also appreciate anonymity as it is the www. I worked very closely with HRD, Water, Tracking and Trailing dogs but did not "Train" them and nor am I a handler. You don't have to train dogs to have basic or certain knowledge or have a opinion or suggestion to offer. K-9's are a complicated topic in itself because each dog is unique to itself, their certifications, training, continuing training, success record and their handler. No two dogs are the same as in no two humans are the same though K-9's could share the same certifications as humans do with certain college degrees but that doesn't guarantee success. The K-9 world can also be extremely opinionated as well as political!!

 

[vestigare]

So, it could more likely be human error rather than the dogs? That is the handler not having the time or information necessary to allow the dog to do its job?

Yes, I have said this numerous times over the last several days. The problems mostly with dogs are the handlers.

But as I said before the problem with that in this case is we had 49 (forty-nine) different dogs from several different agencies. Different dogs trained by different people at different training academies sniffing different substances and following trails and none of them, from what anyone can gather, was able to find anything that has led anyone to believe there was ever 3 suspects there that day.

I am sure they had dogs starting outside the area and working in as well to see if any scent came from the roads and went into the area where he was shot. If they found one they would have been able to try to pick that scent up again somewhere else.

 

[Keefer]

I think the greatest likelihood is that the salt and pepper trio were never at the scene.

Well it seems that we don't know for sure if they did or did not pick up a scent. I think the point is that dogs and their handlers are not infallible. People do get away. There are I would imagine people who have knowledge of methods to confuse and elude dogs.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Dogs don't need a scent from an article. They can be told to just follow any scent until the handler determines the scent is not useful. They would have started at any radiating scent trail out from his body and worked from there. Then probably grid patterned around following scents. Most would have been proven to be animals pretty quick. Others would have been first responders etc.... They would have been able to find a scent leaving the area and that would have been the one they would have focused on the most likely to be one of their suspects.

I think you need to realize that different dogs that work with LE are trained to follow different things.

Some are for drugs, cadavers, or suspect or missing persons. But they need a scent given to them to know what they are looking for.

Besides providing a sample scent. How would the canine know what they are tracking for when pertaining to unknown suspects.

The only canines that don't need scents are the dogs that handles drugs, cadavers, bombs, and electrical devices.

But a dog that is used to track a suspect or missing persons will obviously need a sample of who they are tracking.

 

[vestigare]

Well it seems that we don't know for sure if they did or did not pick up a scent. I think the point is that dogs and their handlers are not infallible. People do get away. There are I would imagine people who have knowledge of methods to confuse and elude dogs.

All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one.

Sure sure that isn't always the correct solution but in this case as Montjoy said when you have 49 dogs and not a single one seems to find this trio I don't need to perform mental gymnastics to explain why 49 dogs and their handlers screwed up so badly they couldn't find any discernible trail from three people who were there an hour before on a nice summer day.

 

[vestigare]

I think you need to realize that different dogs that work with LE are trained to follow different things.

Some are for drugs, cadavers, or suspect or missing persons. But they need a scent given to them to know what they are looking for.

Besides providing a sample scent. How would the canine know what they are tracking for when pertaining to unknown suspects.

um... I think I pointed that very fact out a few pages back and then again yesterday and probably the day before.
I know.

Let me try to explain this.

Dog is sniffing around. Dog hits on scent (any scent) and the handler tells dog to follow. Dog follows scent. Handler is trained to follow dog and watch for visual clues from dog as well as visual evidence that what he is following is what he wants to follow. He finds foot prints or animal drippings etc that is a good clue.

Some dogs scent for nothing at all but human skin cells. Any human skin cells they are told to scent, they start, they alert when they find a scent and they follow it. Same thing the handler is looking for clues at same time. HAndler might realize hey we are following the scent of Gliniewicz here based on clues. We are following some first responder. ETC.

Some dogs scent for ground disturbance whether animal, human, vehicle,They can smell broken vegetation, kicked up dust,. This is where helicopters can be really bad.

This is how a canine can scent without knowing exactly what they are scenting. They are merely following a scent and the human has to determine whether that scent is important.

They also could have followed the scent of pepper spray if sprayed. Or of gun powder if they thought they suspects shot a gun. ETC...

 

[Keefer]

All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one.

Sure sure that isn't always the correct solution but in this case as Montjoy said when you have 49 dogs and not a single one seems to find this trio I don't need to perform mental gymnastics to explain why 49 dogs and their handlers screwed up so badly they couldn't find any discernible trail from three people who were there an hour before on a nice summer day.

So if the dogs were not following a specific scent only the most likely one why didn't the dogs and handlers pursue this most likely scent? Surely some people must have been in this area before his death?

 

[DexterMorgan]

um... I think I pointed that very fact out a few pages back and then again yesterday and probably the day before.
I know.

Let me try to explain this.

Dog is sniffing around. Dog hits on scent (any scent) and the handler tells dog to follow. Dog follows scent. Handler is trained to follow dog and watch for visual clues from dog as well as visual evidence that what he is following is what he wants to follow. He finds foot prints or animal drippings etc that is a good clue.

Some dogs scent for nothing at all but human skin cells. Any human skin cells they are told to scent, they start, they alert when they find a scent and they follow it. Same thing the handler is looking for clues at same time. HAndler might realize hey we are following the scent of Gliniewicz here based on clues. We are following some first responder. ETC.

Some dogs scent for ground disturbance whether animal, human, vehicle,They can smell broken vegetation, kicked up dust,. This is where helicopters can be really bad.

This is how a canine can scent without knowing exactly what they are scenting. They are merely following a scent and the human has to determine whether that scent is important.

They also could have followed the scent of pepper spray if sprayed. Or of gun powder if they thought they suspects shot a gun. ETC...

But they train each k9 to search for different things. Now if the k9 was LT dog. Then I would trust which way it lead me for a suspect. But regular tracking dogs for suspects or missing people usually need a scent -article to follow. Jmo

 

[Cubby]

There was an early report that a K9 had found a trail but it turned out to be an animal they were tracking.

Wasn't that animal from the Volo search and not tbe search within the two mile perimeter surrounding the old cement plant? I coukd be wrong but I think I remember tbat from the volo search.

 

[Tillicum]

I don't agree with that necessarily.

That's ok. Now we're even.