IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #4

[TheDuchess]

With the possibility that I may have to eat my words, here is my theory:

Lt G was not the retiring type. He had applied for multiple PD Chief jobs and was turned down for all of them. This had to be weighing more heavily upon him with each rejection as his retirement grew closer and he had not secured another job. His pension would only be between 50-75% of his salary and does not include medical insurance. On his Facebook page, he has mentioned not being able to afford an upcoming race due to lack of money.

He has 4 sons, at least 2 are still at home. Does anyone know if 1 or 2 of his sons have special needs? Please do not be offended by this question. I have an adolescent son with special needs and am not making any judgements. However, as much as I love my son, there is a lot of work involved and this can be stressful at times. Having a child with special needs can often result in significant additional expenses. Statistically, these families also see higher divorce rates.

Police officers have a higher infidelity/divorce rate than the general public. Some have speculated about this possibility. I was surprised by some of the fitness related "inspirational" type quotes on his Facebook page. I felt that they could possibly be considered offensive by someone who was not as athletic and fit as Lt G, such as his wife. He obviously spent considerable time working out. In addition to his normal PD schedule, he also spent many hours training police explorers. This is wonderful & admirable but this also leaves less time for your family & spouse.

The Fox Lake PD was obviously having some issues. The chief and 1 officer were suspended while being investigated for the handling of a DUI arrest and subsequent complaint by the person arrested. While suspended, the chief chose to retire. I know you are innocent until proven guilty, but I would have expected an innocent and proud 30 year police officer to boldly defend his reputation & career. The city officials have also stated that the Fox Lake PD is undergoing a complete organizational review and an inventory of the department's assets, claiming this is standard procedure whenever there is new leadership. That is questionable. The times when this action is standard procedure is when there are indications of other problems and when department assets may be "missing". Also, the new leadership was appointed from outside of the department rather than promoting from within, even temporarily as many departments do in order to provide stability and continuity while they seek a permanent chief.

Lt G was close friends with the chief and the mayor, they all worked together for over 25 years. They mayor has a 90 minute breakfast with Lt G the day before his death. The mayor has only revealed that they spoke about the future of the police explorer program after Lt G retires. So despite the fact that Lt G was close friends with the mayor, wanted to continue working as a police chief, was praised by all for his distinguished career in Fox Lake, he was not being considered for the recently vacated position of police chief in Fox Lake. If he was , I'm sure that the mayor would have mentioned this in his comments to the press. So what else did they talk about? The investigation of the police department is being done by an outside investigator. This is significant because many serious allegations of wrongdoing are handled without the need for an outside investigator. They mayor no longer has any influence. What else might they find? In the days before his death, Lt G posted on Facebook that he was enjoying a drink on his deck after a stressful few weeks.

Could these circumstances, plus others we are not aware of have caused the perfect storm? Was he trying to sort out his options after the breakfast with the mayor? I don't think that anyone would have seen any traditional signs of suicidal tendencies. Lt G was a tough guy! And a tender guy. And a funny guy. And a wonderful father! He was also human, possibly finding himself suddenly overwhelmed, confused, and angry. The next morning, he left for work as usual, saw 3 men walking together, stopped at the secluded area that he was familiar with. Got out and walked around for 20 minutes while having some impulsive suicidal thoughts. Thought "what if" I could make it look like murder? This could explain the less than elaborate steps taken to disguise the suicide. He remembered the 3 men he saw walking. Shot a glancing shot off his vest (contrary to LE comparison to a sledgehammer and assumed incapacitation, the glancing shot in this instance would have much less impact force). Walked the 100 feet between shell casings, made the radio calls and the fired the final shot. Obviously, both shots were fired with a trajectories and proximity we that are compatible with self infliction or suicide would have been ruled out.

This is is a horrible tragedy. He is still a hero to me. Mentioning the 3 men was a spontaneous thought in a moment of unparalleled crisis, nothing more. Making it look like murder was not premeditated pension fraud, it was a desperate attempt to do something to help his family, consistent with his character, during the chaotic last moments of his life. He hid his fear and pain very well. Starting with his military service and continuing with the police department, he was conditioned to serve others, not ask for help. If he was shouldering more than he could handle, had given away too much of himself, and could see no other option, I think we need to learn from this terrible loss. These few moments of desperation do not negate all the wonderful things he has done or the lives he has touched. I would like to see the media focus on the issue of suicide among LE, all emergency responders, and our military, in order to honor his legacy and help others before they too, give too much.

Great thoughts and I share many of them. But I don't think he was afraid of death. He may not have welcomed it, but he spent his life pursuing things he felt were for a greater good in spite of the fact he could have died. I do feel he was a person that would have given his life if he felt it were the only way to serve the greater good.

BTW - please clear your inbox - trying to message you!

 

[TheDuchess]

Hard evidence that we know from LE pointing toward a homicide:

The radio call
2 shots/1 fatal
9 unidentified DNA
Signs of a struggle
Scent trail leading away from the scene for about a quarter of a mile

Hard evidence of a suicide:
None - only speculation based upon what has NOT been found, i.e. the suspects

 

[Chuz Life]

Here's what I don't understand. If CG planned this elaborate scheme to stage his suicide as a homicide, why didn't he acquire and modify another gun so that it couldn't be traced back to him or anyone else?

That's a great point but it's one we can only speculate about. I can think of a lot of different ways (better ways) an officer could have made a suicide along these same lines more believable.

It's one of the reasons I still believe he only intended to fake a struggle and an encounter. Unless I see evidence to the contrary, I still think the setting that makes the most sense to me - as it fits the evidence - is that the Lt killed himself accidentally while trying to fake the struggle and assault on himself.

However, (Again) I would like to see the actual ballistics and other forensic evidence before making this my final conclusion.

 

[Japple]

I tried to send this via PM but your inbox appears to be full. I live in fox lake and I'm sure I can identify the location. Please send them to me if you can't post them in the open. I'd be glad to help and am curious as heck to see where these guys were in relation to LTs route and crime scene.

I just read the rules and my post might be against the rules here. I apologize. But let me clarify that if I were to identify the location, I would share it openly on this forum. I can understand why the picture may not be allowed to be posted as these 3 have been deemed innocent. But if i can determine their location, it would be beneficial to this discussion weather he could have possibly seen these men and used their likeness to fabricate his dispatch call.

 

[marble]

Boo Radley- fwiw that's pretty much the exact scenario I've also been envisioning- the explanation for the two shots and distance between them, the time taken, etc. -with the exception that I don't think it was completely spur of the moment that morning (meaning, I think it's something he'd thought through a little bit before, weighing the pros and cons of suicide versus being killed in the line of duty and what effect that would have on his family and peers -but possibly in an "ideation" rather than a "strategic planning" kind of way).

 

[Japple]

The lack of that evidence is the ONLY reason that suicide is still being considered in this case.

rsbm bbm

Exactly. This is what most of us that believe it was a homicide think. But the dna will always be run through CODIS on a daily basis. which is why I believe this case will remain open for a very long time.

 

[Chuz Life]

I don't know how to multi quote so I will just answer.

I don't know if it's different with a tablet but in the lower right hand corner of each post, there is a set of quotation marks and a plus sign on my pc. To use multi quote, I simply click on the plus signs of the posts that I want to quote and then click on the "reply with quote" button. Then the editing begins to edit out the unwanted portions and to keep in the part that I want to respond to. It gets easier with practice.

We know there were three people in the area who matched the description radioed in because they were seen on surveillance, interviewed by police and ruled out as being involved. Ruling them out as having been involved does not mean it rules them out of being in the area at the time.

True.

By familiar face, I don't mean the 3 were recognizable or familiar to LT. CG. A 4th person who arrived on the scene unrelated to the three who LT. CG would have recognized as someone arriving for backup would have the opportunity to walk right up to him and grab his weapon because he or she would never have been considered a threat by Lt.

Man, that's a lot of bodies to be able to just vanish like that all at once.

CG or the others who arrived on the scene and possibly saw their peers already there If the responsible person was believed to belong on the scene as the investigation was occurring isn't there a possibility a dog tracking their scent would have been dismissed?

Yes and no.

I think there were enough other officers on the scene who might dismiss a dog alerting on a fellow officer once or in the beginning. . . . but as the investigation developed, I doubt they would ignore it completely - given they have so little else and so few other leads to follow up on.

 

[Chuz Life]

rsbm bbm

Exactly. This is what most of us that believe it was a homicide think. But the dna will always be run through CODIS on a daily basis. which is why I believe this case will remain open for a very long time.

Depending on where the sample was found and taken from, a positive hit on CODIS would not prove the 'suspect' was at this scene and involved in the Lt's death. It may only indicate a chance encounter with him at some point prior to the officer's death.

I just watched an investigation type show on TV today where the suspect was bitten by his victim and the first thing his atty tried to point out is the fact that the "bite match" only proves she bit him. It doesn't prove he killed her.

Luckily, there was other evidence that later lead to his conviction.

 

[Japple]

I know a CODIS hit may end up a dead end. but until then the DNA remains a vital piece of evidence.

 

[Chuz Life]

Hard evidence that we know from LE pointing toward a homicide:

Thank you for the opportunity for me to respond to these.

The radio call

Credible, only if it wasn't staged or faked by the Lt to conceal either his suicide or a staged encounter of some other type.

2 shots/1 fatal

This is also consistent with a suicide being staged or faked to look like an police action encounter.

9 unidentified DNA

Insignificant data. Was it blood evidence? Where was it gathered from?

Signs of a struggle

Also, likely would have been staged if the LT was trying to fake an encounter.

Scent trail leading away from the scene for about a quarter of a mile

Weak at best. " While the K-9 used later that day specifically started tracking residue from near Gliniewicz's gun, it is not able to track residue from any specific weapon, Filenko said. He added that it's unknown how long the residue trail was in the area."

Office Filenko's own statement leaves open the possibility that the trail that was followed was possibly from another officer who may have inadvertently carried the scent away from where the body and gun was found.

Hard evidence of a suicide:
None - only speculation based upon what has NOT been found, i.e. the suspects

I disagree.

The hard evidence that points toward suicide (for me at least) would include some of the evidence that you think points towards a murder / homicide.

- Gun Shot Residue on his hands
- Shot with his own weapon
- On location for 20 minutes or more without any radio contact or notification to dispatch of his whereabouts
- Circumstantial evidence that includes the nearing end of his career, ongoing departmental investigations, The calling off of the massive manhunt after only 14 hrs, The Lt's interest in the "Police Lives Matter" verses the "Black Lives Matter" concerns (shown in his social media), etc.

I am entirely open to any and all evidence that may come later and how that can change my conclusions entirely. This is only what I have to base my conclusions on at this time.

 

[katydid23]

- Gun Shot Residue on his hands
- Shot with his own weapon
- On location for 20 minutes or more without any radio contact or notification to dispatch of his whereabouts
- Circumstantial evidence that includes the nearing end of his career, ongoing departmental investigations, Black Lives Matter verses Police Lives matter concerns (shown in his social media), etc.
============================================================

All of the above could point to homicide as well. That is why this is a complex case. JMO

 

[DexterMorgan]

The dispatcher on 911 calls will ask the person a billion questions while the caller is hiding from intruders. But his dispatcher didn't ask him no real questions. Like a description or are you on foot or in car. Or what are they doing. Or nothing. They just ask if he needs back up as if he was standing right in front of them at the time. Idk.

I just think he could have described what color clothes they were wearing atleast. Jmo

 

[Chuz Life]

- Gun Shot Residue on his hands
- Shot with his own weapon
- On location for 20 minutes or more without any radio contact or notification to dispatch of his whereabouts
- Circumstantial evidence that includes the nearing end of his career, ongoing departmental investigations, Black Lives Matter verses Police Lives matter concerns (shown in his social media), etc.
============================================================

All of the above could point to homicide as well. That is why this is a complex case. JMO

Bolded By Me.

I'm not seeing it.

Would you mind chronologically detailing the events as you believe they unfolded? It's fine if you want to make it clear that it's only speculation. I would like to read your thoughts and specifically how you think things took place and how you believe the evidence we have supports that possible conclusion.

 

[katydid23]

Bolded By Me.

I'm not seeing it.

Would you mind chronologically detailing the events as you believe they unfolded? It's fine if you want to make it clear that it's only speculation. I would like to read your thoughts and specifically how you think things took place and how you believe the evidence we have supports that possible conclusion.

My statement was that the facts you set forth as indicators of suicide, could also be indicators of homicide.

- Gun Shot Residue on his hands
- Shot with his own weapon
- On location for 20 minutes or more without any radio contact or notification to dispatch of his whereabouts
- Circumstantial evidence that includes the nearing end of his career, ongoing departmental investigations, Black Lives Matter verses Police Lives matter concerns (shown in his social media), etc.

Gun shot residue on hands: if he had a close up struggle then he could have gun shot residue on his hands.

Shot with own weapon: Quite often happens that way

On location for 20 minutes w/out checking in: It was the very start of his shift, or even before, IIRC. Lt's do not always check in and tell their whereabouts when not on street patrol.

I am not going to take the bait and give you a chronological play by play because I do not know what happened. Maybe he shot himself and maybe someone else shot him. But the facts above can go either way, imo.

 

[Montjoy]

Hard evidence that we know from LE pointing toward a homicide:

The radio call
2 shots/1 fatal
9 unidentified DNA
Signs of a struggle
Scent trail leading away from the scene for about a quarter of a mile

I'm not sure what you mean by "hard" evidence. Of those listed, I only think that the radio call points to a homicide theory.

--The two shots were from the LT's own weapon, and they must have been from close range, or else suicide would have been ruled out, so they could have both been self-inflicted.

--The unidentified DNA doesn't say murder to me. Who knows how old it was? Finding DNA does not mean that there is a suspect.

--The supposed 'signs of a struggle' have never been described. If they were clear signs, I'm sure we would have heard what they were earlier, and, for that matter, suicide would have been taken off the table from day 1. So far as we know, the two gunshots may be considered as signs of a struggle, but there is nothing compelling to suggest that they weren't self-inflicted.

--Dogs aren't detectives; they follow scent trails, and they can't tell their handlers what scent they are following, or why they are following a trail. There is nothing about the scent trail that anyone should take as "hard" or strong evidence of a homicide.

 

[Japple]

All the known evidence can be contradicted by the "suicide side" of this discussion as being staged. But at the same time, it is still evidence of a homicide. With that in mind we all know certain evidence and details of released evidence remains unknown to the public. Knowing the extent of such evidence would probably lead to people in this thread to change sides one way or the other. So at this point, both "sides" have reason to believe what they believe. I'm hopeful that the next press release from either the coroner or the task force has something meaningful in either direction.

 

[Montjoy]

- Gun Shot Residue on his hands
- Shot with his own weapon
- On location for 20 minutes or more without any radio contact or notification to dispatch of his whereabouts
- Circumstantial evidence that includes the nearing end of his career, ongoing departmental investigations, Black Lives Matter verses Police Lives matter concerns (shown in his social media), etc.
============================================================

All of the above could point to homicide as well. That is why this is a complex case. JMO

First off, all of the evidence you mention is circumstantial -- not only the last bunch.

But what in the world does 'Black Lives Matter' have to do with this case (in either the suicide or homicide theory)?

 

[katydid23]

First off, all of the evidence you mention is circumstantial -- not only the last bunch.

But what in the world does 'Black Lives Matter' have to do with this case (in either the suicide or homicide theory)?

I cut and pasted that from the post I was replying to. See post #50 by Chuz life

 

[tcer114]

I'm not sure I understand. Many of us here feel that from what we know both theories could be possible. The last thing Rudd himself said of the situation was that he wasn't sure if it was homicide suicide or even accidental.


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And because of what Rudd said, they have to leave suicide on the table. They are maintaining the investigation as a homicide because the preponderance of the evidence must point to homicide.

 

[Montjoy]

They are maintaining the investigation as a homicide because the preponderance of the evidence must point to homicide.

That's an assumption, and I think it's a flawed one. There are many reasons that they might keep investigating it as a homicide, some of which may be reasonable, and some of which may not.