IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #4

[vestigare]

Not even that.

In my scenario he was only staging an encounter with a shooting. No injuries were necessarily wanted or warranted .

In my scenario, he was just shooting his vest to make it look like he was shot at.

sorry I misstated your scenario.

 

[night train]

Would like like to see some videos of firearms instructors who should have known better - having serious gun related accidents caught on tape?

Performance anxiety while being videoed? Hey it happens..

But seriously, I think the odds against this theory are poor and become even worse considering we're talking about a veteran cop that knew his way around firearms.

Maybe you're somehow right,especially if something else could be factored in, I wasn't joking about the toxicology report.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Another thing, no two (I'm fried) things I've been meaning to comment on that will probably break the case - not!

First, when former Chief Behan spoke at the memorial service,
even though I don't know anything about him or the situation within the department, it surprised me to see him speaking at the podium. Not sure why but it did. His persona struck me as kind and well spoken.
Because my first impression of him was positive, my hope is he's not a bad guy.

Second, the Village newsletter that came out around the same time Lt. G lost his life was a new design. The Mayor explained it as such within but, I'm sure, it was printed prior to the tragedy.
Just thought I'd say, job well done!

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Not good - it strikes me as sad regarding the Explorer Program.
For whatever reason, whoever is in charge wasted no time shutting the program down.
Could the new Governor and budget constraints be causing cutbacks.
If so, I hope good programs that have been working to help young people (possibly wayward or fatherless? - I don't want to assume they all are but some may be) aren't the first to be cut back.
Who funds the program?

Our society needs more programs like this one, not less.
No one has complained of any impropriety have they?
As we've gone along, I figured if anything bad had been uncovered, we would have heard about it by now.

Tomorrow. :seeya:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Interesting. Considering the scuttlebutt regarding investigations involved the explorers program and the meeting with the mayor and the mayor saying Joe was worried about the program. Maybe something was going on and joe knew he would not be permitted to even volunteer with them until that got cleared up?

The new guy might have to start fresh to keep up appearances so he too isn't sunk by an investigation. I am sure after 20 years of Joe things will change.for that program.

Who is the new guy and why lock the doors?
Honestly, why do this to the kids mid stream like this?
Tons of questions - who else helped lead?

If my worst thoughts come true, I'm joining vesti's claim to psychic
powers.

(really leaving now)

 

[night train]

I do think there is an awful lot of misplaced emphases on him being ex military and a supposed sniper and this or that trained expert. We don't know what his skill levels are in any of those areas and as you said even highly skilled intelligent people do some really foolish things so it doesn't matter much if he was this or that.

Right, like chase 3 suspicious characters on foot into dense cover before backup arrived.

 

[Chuz Life]

IMO if anyone is stupid enough to shoot theirself on purpose, they deserve what they get if their plan backfires.

Right. I said that too. In an earlier post.

The problem is nobody else deserves the fallout and grief the situation creates. All of the personal and community grief, fear and confusion, along with financial loss that reaches beyond PD budget concerns is too punitive as a result of what one person chose to do. Some locals took a big hit to their livelihoods due to the timing over Labor Day weekend.

I agree.

Any imagined situation is possible but the theory he staged a scene without intending to end his life, is far-fetched imo.

What are your thoughts on this guy and what he did? Suppose he did everything as is reported in that news story but he managed to "accidentally" kill himself in the process.

It'll be difficult enough to accept suicide if that's what the investigation concludes.

For me, that will depend on what evidence is being disclosed at that time.

There seems to be a movement to accept suicide as an accepted choice with no questions asked.

Right.

Some of the questions I am asking is "what if he only intended to shot his vest and missed?" "What if he didn't INTEND to kill himself?"

When someone ends their own life without warning, it may end their pain but their action has power to devastate other people.

I know this for a fact.

People fall off ladders and die. We don't label cause of death suicide when that happens. We call it a fatal accident.

What about accidental drug overdoses?

Which ones are suicides? Which ones are just fatal accidents?

What about someone experimenting with erotic asphyxiation?" If they take it too far and die. . . Is it an accident? Or is it a suicide?

The term accidental suicide doesn't make any sense to me.

Okay, well it makes total sense to me when certain conditions are met.

The word suicide, all by itself, means to intentionally kill oneself.
Accidentally can't be combined with intentionally.

I see your point and semantically it's a good one. However, I do think that they can be combined in cases such as some of the ones I and others have described. A person putting what they think is an unloaded gun to their head and purposely pulling the trigger is not just having an accident if the gun goes off and kills them. Neither is a person who unintentionally overdoses with their favorite recreational drug actually trying to commit suicide. A person who shoots themself in their bullet proof vest is neither having an accident nor intentionally committing suicide, when that goes wrong and they end up dead.

 

[Chuz Life]

How about staged suicide gone wrong?
Does that sum the concept up?

If we trying to narrow it down to specifics, un-intentional suicide or non-intentional suicide sounds better (more descriptive) to me.

 

[al66pine]

Some say ......'Suicide. 100% certain. How can anyone disagree?'
Others say ....'Homicide. 100% certain. How can anyone disagree?'

Do some ppl post about -
- poss criminal charges (w'out specifying that) that cd/be brought if 1, 2, or 3 POI's are located, arrested, etc?
- poss civil suit (w'out specifying that) LtG's widow cd/file if FLPD benefits re his death are denied?

In court, the burden of proof depends on nature of the action filed. Many of us recall criminal cases in which a jury or judge found a defendant 'not guilty' and jury in a later civil wrongful death action returned verdict for surviving spouse, family, et al. Ex: O.J. Simpson, among many others. Just a thought.


___________________________________________________________________________

"Standard of proof: United States
"Burden of proof refers most generally to the obligation of a party to prove its allegations at trial. In a civil case the plaintiff sets forth its allegations in a complaint, petition or other pleading. The defendant is then required to file a responsive pleading denying some or all of the allegations and setting forth any affirmative facts in defense. Each party has the burden of proof of its allegations."

Civil:
"Preponderance of the evidence
Preponderance of the evidence, also known as balance of probabilities is the standard required in most civil cases, ...
The standard is met if the proposition is more likely to be true than not true. The standard is satisfied if there is greater than fifty percent chance that the proposition is true.... "more probable than not...."
" This is a far lower burden than "beyond a reasonable doubt," the threshold a prosecutor must meet at any proceeding criminal trial...."
Criminal:
"Beyond reasonable doubt...
"This is the highest standard used as the burden of proof in Anglo-American jurisprudence and typically only applies in criminal proceedings. It has been described, in negative terms, as a proof having been met if there is no plausible reason to believe otherwise. If there is a real doubt, based upon reason and common sense after careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence, or lack of evidence, in a case, then the level of proof has not been met."

^bbm sbm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof

 

[Chuz Life]

But seriously, I think the odds against this theory are poor and become even worse considering we're talking about a veteran cop that knew his way around firearms.

I've been around firearms of all sorts my whole life. I am a prior service Marine and I wore flak jackets many many times. I know without a doubt that I could shoot myself in my vest (if I had one) and not have any real worries that the vest would protect me. I also know that the margin for error is incredibly small and if anything can go wrong. . . eventually, it will.

 

[night train]

I've been around firearms of all sorts my whole life. I am a prior service Marine and I wore flak jackets many many times. I know without a doubt that I could shoot myself in my vest (if I had one) and not have any real worries that the vest would protect me. I also know that the margin for error is incredibly small and if anything can go wrong. . . eventually, it will.

Chuz thank you for your service and your perspective on this event.

A seasoned Police Officer with 32 years of service faking a confrontation with 3 perps could have the excessive pride, self-confidence and arrogance to believe he could successfully shoot his vest with that 2nd 40 caliber bullet or to pursue 3 suspicious characters on foot into heavy cover without waiting 3 or 4 minutes for backup.

 

[vestigare]

Not good - it strikes me as sad regarding the Explorer Program.
For whatever reason, whoever is in charge wasted no time shutting the program down.
Could the new Governor and budget constraints be causing cutbacks.
If so, I hope good programs that have been working to help young people (possibly wayward or fatherless? - I don't want to assume they all are but some may be) aren't the first to be cut back.
Who funds the program?

Our society needs more programs like this one, not less.
No one has complained of any impropriety have they?
As we've gone along, I figured if anything bad had been uncovered, we would have heard about it by now.

Tomorrow. :seeya:

As far as I know this program is part of the Official LE Explorers Program which is a division of the Boy Scouts. They are not funded directly by the department, town or tax-payers. They are funded much the same way the Boy Scouts are.

There has been some problems with this program (nationally) in recent years and as I said I have heard some whispers that independent of the other investigations (behan and PD) that there was or is someone doing some looking into the Explorers.

It is possible here that the Lions club decided to cut ties for personal our political reasons.

This tweet came from a teen who is probably over emotional about Joe's death and anxious about how the new leader will change things which is understandable that he will change things

 

[vestigare]

Right, like chase 3 suspicious characters on foot into dense cover before backup arrived.

Yes, I have always said he could have been stupid and chased them. But they still have to prove they actually existed and have not been able to do so far. "What ifs" are not evidence and you don't build your evidence around them at the exclusion of other evidence to the contrary.

 

[TheDuchess]

Some say ......'Suicide. 100% certain. How can anyone disagree?'
Others say ....'Homicide. 100% certain. How can anyone disagree?'

Do some ppl post about -
- poss criminal charges (w'out specifying that) that cd/be brought if 1, 2, or 3 POI's are located, arrested, etc?
- poss civil suit (w'out specifying that) LtG's widow cd/file if FLPD benefits re his death are denied?

In court, the burden of proof depends on nature of the action filed. Many of us recall criminal cases in which a jury or judge found a defendant 'not guilty' and jury in a later civil wrongful death action returned verdict for surviving spouse, family, et al. Ex: O.J. Simpson, among many others. Just a thought.


___________________________________________________________________________

"Standard of proof: United States
"Burden of proof refers most generally to the obligation of a party to prove its allegations at trial. In a civil case the plaintiff sets forth its allegations in a complaint, petition or other pleading. The defendant is then required to file a responsive pleading denying some or all of the allegations and setting forth any affirmative facts in defense. Each party has the burden of proof of its allegations."

Civil:
"Preponderance of the evidence
Preponderance of the evidence, also known as balance of probabilities is the standard required in most civil cases, ...
The standard is met if the proposition is more likely to be true than not true. The standard is satisfied if there is greater than fifty percent chance that the proposition is true.... "more probable than not...."
" This is a far lower burden than "beyond a reasonable doubt," the threshold a prosecutor must meet at any proceeding criminal trial...."
Criminal:
"Beyond reasonable doubt...
"This is the highest standard used as the burden of proof in Anglo-American jurisprudence and typically only applies in criminal proceedings. It has been described, in negative terms, as a proof having been met if there is no plausible reason to believe otherwise. If there is a real doubt, based upon reason and common sense after careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence, or lack of evidence, in a case, then the level of proof has not been met."

^bbm sbm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof

Honestly, I only have seen the suicide side claiming 100% certainty and incredulousness at anyone not being as convinced as they are.

I see the homicide side simply keeping an open mind and awaiting more information, but certainly open to the possibility.

 

[vestigare]

The Explorers Program is not Fox Lake Police Department funded nor dependent.
The Explorers Program is part of the Boys Scouts of America Programs and is funded in a host of ways.
Fox Lake PD is just one of the groups who work with this Post #300 in Fox Lake.
Mrs. Gliniewicz and many other non-LEO are staff advisors on the program and there is no need for you to be an active duty LEO to help with the program.
Grant Community High School is located at 285 E Grand Ave which is a mile north-east as the crow flies from where Gliniewicz was found dead.
As far as I can see the Lions Club has their meetings at 71 Nippersink Blvd which is a mile north-west from the crime scene. I do not know if this is a dedicated Club House or just a meeting place for various organizations in that town.

We do not know what rumors are floating around among the LE community, Business community nor the Explorers community in that town.
I also can not understand why Joe would not still be part of the Explorers program even after retirement. Was his wife told she was couldn't be part of it as well after his retirement?
I imagine Joe probably couldn't be the leader because they probably prefer the leader to be active duty on the local PD. And he might have had concerns the new guy would change thing etc... but that is completely understandable as any new person will want to come in and make the place his own and implement new training and new ideas.

The changing of the Lions Club locks could be something as simple as they changed the locks because someone who had access to the keys died recently (Gliniewicz) and they wanted to make sure the location was secure because they can't be sure who has his keys. Or maybe the Lions Club decided not to sponsor to the Explorers program meetings for whatever reasons.

We know Joe was concerned about this program before his death and with the proximity of the high school to the Club Meeting space and the crime scene we don't know if it was Joe's habit to visit the Lions Club house before work or if had visited it that morning before going to the cement plant. Did he do a lot of work for Explorers in the Club House during odd hours? Did he meet kids there for Explorer related activities off hours?

Just some things to consider......

 

[vestigare]

Honestly, I only have seen the suicide side claiming 100% certainty and incredulousness at anyone not being as convinced as they are.

I see the homicide side simply keeping an open mind and awaiting more information, but certainly open to the possibility.

What you see is me saying the task force has provided no proof this is homicide as every single piece of evidence they have provided could be suicide as much as it could be homicide.
For suicide we need no further evidence to be presented. For homicide we obviously need some sort of evidence that has yet to be even found by the task force or they would have wrapped this up and stopped leaving suicide on the table. So yes, I am 100% certain right now that nothing they have provided the public proves Homicide and I am fairly certain nothing the Task Force is holding back proves homicide because I can't imagine why they would keep that evidence from the coroner and why he wouldn't then determine the manner of death as homicide if they had that info.

 

[Keefer]

I think the task force does not trust Dr. R or has little confidence in him.

 

[vestigare]

Question to Task Force.
-Does the GPS show Joe went to the Lions Club Club House that morning and if so, how long was he there?
-Was he known in the past to meet anyone regarding the Explorers Program at the Club House before work?
-Where did he do his office work for the Explorers Program? At home or somewhere else?

 

[vestigare]

I think the task force does not trust Dr. R or has little confidence in him.

Well that isn't their prerogative I am sad to inform them. They have a job to do and it includes informing the coroner of certain aspects so he can perform his job. They are all answerable to the Citizens of Lake County and Illinois not to themselves.

 

[vestigare]

I think the task force does not trust Dr. R or has little confidence in him.

So, do you honestly think they have evidence this is homicide and instead of telling the coroner that evidence they rather piecemeal out inconclusive evidence in press conferences while angering every one of the people that keep them in their job?