IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

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  • #861
How can he be innocent when he has confessed to the crime?

That literally makes zero sense!!!

Once again he has confessed to his wife he had murdered them. So how exactly is he innocent?


"The National Registry of Exonerations has collected data on 1,810 exonerations in the United States since 1989 (as of June 7, 2016). They include 227 cases of innocent men and women who confessed, 13 percent of the total, all after receiving Miranda warnings (at least according to the police). Nearly three quarters of those false confessions were in homicide cases."
(this is only referring to confessions prior to exonerations and in police interviews, as that is the most common setting for a false confession.)

People falsely confess regularly. We haven't even heard exactly what he said. In order to verify whether his confession is a true confession or made out of desperation or fear or psychosis, we need to actually hear what he said and whether he expressed knowledge of the crime scene and murders and hold up to other known facts, hear from a psychological expert about his mental state, and hear from witnesses about the conditions of the prison. It would also be helpful to know his IQ, as those with intellectual disabilities or borderline intellectual functioning are more likely to falsely confess.

Even legal professionals like the Prosecutors podcast who lean toward the guilt of RA are open about the fact that they need to actually see the content of the confessions before being confident it was a true confession.
 
  • #862
I could come up with other reasons for why RA resorted to eating his paperwork, most wouldn’t agree so I’ll just leave that alone.

Personally, I just don’t see the D fighting tooth and nail for RA if they thought he was in anyway involved. IANAL, obviously, but if I were and there was discovery linking RA to the bodies, I’d be going for a plea deal. Come on, if LE found RA’s DNA on one or both of the girls, RA is done! But that’s not how they are going at this, which leads me to believe his DNA was not found on the bodies or anywhere around the CS. Again, JMO.
But defense council is suppose to fight tooth and nail if their client says to them, I didn't do it, I don't want to plea deal. It matters not whether they believe the client. They're suppose to be zealous in the client's defense. Not getting him to agree to a plea deal would not necessarily be an indicator of an innocent client not wanting to plea down to lesser charges. It could just as well be a stubborn guilty client willing to take his chances at trial, whether the defense attornies agree or not. AJMO
 
  • #863
That’s the question, is the Odins theory truly exculpatory evidence or was it merely a sensationalistic sideline to avoid directly attacking the evidence which resulted in RA’s arrest…..possibly because that evidence is too strong? Alternate defense theories might create doubt in the jury’s mind during a trial but I don’t think they’re going to result in getting charges dropped pretrial.

And since when did the definition of discovery change to include the complete investigative file? I thought it consisted of evidence the P intended to present at RA’s future trial.

JMO

Imagine having to hand over as discovery all the 50,000 tips received by LE. Imagine a defense team saying... in one of the tips... John George (sic) on 12/13/18 said that BG looked like Jim Shorter (sic) from down the road.

Did you investigate Jim Shorter fully? Where are your files on his investigation.

The truth being they got 10,000 of those "think it looks sort of like Joe Blow..." comments.. .that ALL get thrown to the bottom of the list as non-priority.

Is it the defenses right to have every single piece of the investigation? No
 
  • #864
"Innocent until proven guilty"

What a concept! :D

And the costs of a trial being in excess of $1M out of pocket for pro bono defense counsel as preposterous is factually wrong. It is posted disinformation both imo and in my experience. If anything, it is a significant undervalue when for the state side alone it was already projected to exceed $2M back in March. jmo

 
  • #865
This is a very big deal and I'm wondering if the only reason we haven't heard about it from defense yet is because of the slow-walk on discovery production from the state to the D.

Feb 23, 2017
"On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered...It is now the third piece of evidence investigators have said publicly they have: the grainy suspect photo, that chilling audio of a man's voice saying “down the hill,” and now some kind of DNA sample...We asked for a fast-track as far as that piece information,” said Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. “So I can’t go into specifics because of the ongoing [investigation]...It’s good,” said Bush, “the science is excellent, it’s very trustworthy, and there are very strong standards in DNA processing, but…when all is said and done, [it’s] just one piece of evidence for the process.”

Well, we know whose DNA it isn't or it would have been shouted from the rooftops imo.

This was some time ago now so was there a publicized match found, or has this just been sitting out there buried (and ignored)?


ETA: They need to turn this over. If they hadn't yet prior to the non-withdrawal withdrawal, why not?
But didn't they say that the DNA was not something you would expect? Maybe like spit or animal hair?
 
  • #866
How can he be innocent when he has confessed to the crime?

That literally makes zero sense!!!

Once again he has confessed to his wife he had murdered them. So how exactly is he innocent?


Because he's saying, through that FM via his former attorneys, that he was basically threatened into it by Odinist guards and POW conditions in prison. He was not in his right mind on the phone...no less than 5 times...to his wife and mother.

We've yet to see a defense fight to throw out those phone call recordings of RA's supposed confessions. But it must be coming. IMO
 
  • #867
Because he's a US citizen.


Well regardless he has confessed to the crime multiple times and placed himself at the scene. So on those actions alone he looks guilty
"The National Registry of Exonerations has collected data on 1,810 exonerations in the United States since 1989 (as of June 7, 2016). They include 227 cases of innocent men and women who confessed, 13 percent of the total, all after receiving Miranda warnings (at least according to the police). Nearly three quarters of those false confessions were in homicide cases."
(this is only referring to confessions prior to exonerations and in police interviews, as that is the most common setting for a false confession.)

People falsely confess regularly. We haven't even heard exactly what he said. In order to verify whether his confession is a true confession or made out of desperation or fear or psychosis, we need to actually hear what he said and whether he expressed knowledge of the crime scene and murders and hold up to other known facts, hear from a psychological expert about his mental state, and hear from witnesses about the conditions of the prison. It would also be helpful to know his IQ, as those with intellectual disabilities or borderline intellectual functioning are more likely to falsely confess.

Even legal professionals like the Prosecutors podcast who lean toward the guilt of RA are open about the fact that they need to actually see the content of the confessions before being confident it was a true confession.


Of course we need to hear it unless he decides to do the right thing and save everyone the agony of a trial. I am confident they have the right man from the bits we know so far. I find it highly frustrating this has turned into a circus show when you look at the crimes he has been accused of committing.

Moo
 
  • #868
  • #869
How can he be innocent when he has confessed to the crime?

That literally makes zero sense!!!

Once again he has confessed to his wife he had murdered them. So how exactly is he innocent?



So what I understand of this below, is just that it’s confusing. RA’s confessions will likely be very incriminating evidence at his trial, yet the ex-D writes it off to prison mistreatment that impacted both his physical and mental health. So then the P wants to see the medical records, but the D denies the request because “his mental state is not at issue in the guilt/innocence phase of this proceeding”. Huh?

The only way I can think of why it wouldn’t be an issue is if the ex-D intended go the insanity route, just hadn’t filed it YET and that’s supported by the medical records IMO.

Allen’s defense team argued the confession couldn't be taken as truth given Allen’s deteriorating mental and physical health while in prison.”

Attorneys for Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen are asking the court to deny the prosecution access to their client’s mental health and medical records….

…..Allen’s attorneys wrote that they had not filed an insanity defense, nor have they requested a competency evaluation of Allen, meaning his “mental state is not at issue in the guilt/innocence phase of this proceeding.”
 
  • #870
Because he's saying, through that FM via his former attorneys, that he was basically threatened into it by Odinist guards and POW conditions in prison. He was not in his right mind on the phone...no less than 5 times...to his wife and mother.

We've yet to see a defense fight to throw out those phone call recordings of RA's supposed confessions. But it must be coming. IMO


Oh please Odinists :D

i read that entire document and it was farcical and then we have his lawyers friends popping by and leaking confidential documents. They are a bunch of clowns!!

IMO
 
  • #871
And since when did the definition of discovery change to include the complete investigative file? I thought it consisted of evidence the P intended to present at RA’s future trial. As much as the ex-D might wish for, RA and the Odins are not going to be on a chose-one-or-the-other trial.
SBM because I was also curious about this part

BBM
"(B) Scope of discovery. Unless otherwise limited by order of the court in accordance with these rules, the scope of discovery is as follows:

(1) In general. Parties may obtain discovery regarding any matter, not privileged, which is relevant to the subject-matter involved in the pending action, whether it relates to the claim or defense of the party seeking discovery or the claim or defense of any other party, including the existence, description, nature, custody, condition and location of any books, documents, or other tangible things and the identity and location of persons having knowledge of any discoverable matter. It is not ground for objection that the information sought will be inadmissible at the trial if the information sought appears reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence.

The frequency or extent of use of the discovery methods otherwise permitted under these rules and by any local rule shall be limited by the court if it determines that: (i) the discovery sought is unreasonably cumulative or duplicative, or is obtainable from some other source that is more convenient, less burdensome, or less expensive; (ii) the party seeking discovery has had ample opportunity by discovery in the action to obtain the information sought or; (iii) the burden or expense of the proposed discovery outweighs its likely benefit, taking into account the needs of the case, the amount in controversy, the parties’ resources, the importance of the issues at stake in the litigation, and the importance of the proposed discovery in resolving the issues. The court may act upon its own initiative after reasonable notice or pursuant to a motion under Rule 26(C)."
 
  • #872
Oh please Odinists :D

i read that entire document and it was farcical and then we have his lawyers friends popping by and leaking confidential documents. They are a bunch of clowns!!

IMO
I didn't say I agreed with it only that it was obviously part of their strategy...at the moment.
 
  • #873
Is that testimony available in full to read?

I wish. I asked here last night if anyone knows of a media outlet or podcast creator that was able to grab them but no luck. So all we have are the pleadings incorporating them by reference. Those are sworn pleadings submitted to the court and the statements are pin cited to page and line.

jmo

See, e.g., page 129
184 Liggett depo. p. 80, lines 1-3.
185 Liggett depo. p. 80, lines 9-12.
186 Liggett depo. p. 80, lines 13-25
187 Holeman depo. p. 40, lines 14-19.
188 Holeman depo. p. 48, lines 20-25 and p. 49, lines 1-4.
189 Holeman depo. p. 50, lines 13-16.
190 Holeman depo. p. 51, lines 6-8.
191 Holeman depo. p. 53, lines 1-13.
192 Holeman depo. p. 57, lines 19-25 and p. 58, lines 1-4.
193 Holeman depo. p. 58, lines 1-20
 
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  • #874
But didn't they say that the DNA was not something you would expect? Maybe like spit or animal hair?

That's possible but I have not see it so I can't speak to it. This is what I saw.

“We asked for a fast-track as far as that piece information,” said Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. So I can’t go into specifics because of the ongoing [investigation]...

Dr. Bush is the laboratory director for Strand Diagnostics, an FBI-accredited facility that often assists law enforcement, although they’re not working on the Delphi case. “You can generally get a good profile if you’ve got at least 30-35 human cells,” said Bush. It can sometimes take two days to a week to generate a DNA profile from evidence, if not longer.

But if you are fast-tracking it…if it’s a case that’s got some urgency to it, it can be done in a couple of days,” said Bush.
Which is what Sheriff Leazenby said is happening. But while DNA can bolster a case, Dr. Bush says it’s not always a slam dunk on its own.

“It’s good,” said Bush, “the science is excellent, it’s very trustworthy, and there are very strong standards in DNA processing, but…when all is said and done, [it’s] just one piece of evidence for the process.”

 
  • #875
SBM because I was also curious about this part

BBM
"(B) Scope of discovery. Unless otherwise limited by order of the court in accordance with these rules, the scope of discovery is as follows:

(1) In general. Parties may obtain discovery regarding any matter, not privileged, which is relevant to the subject-matter involved in the pending action, whether it relates to the claim or defense of the party seeking discovery or the claim or defense of any other party, including the existence, description, nature, custody, condition and location of any books, documents, or other tangible things and the identity and location of persons having knowledge of any discoverable matter. It is not ground for objection that the information sought will be inadmissible at the trial if the information sought appears reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence.

The frequency or extent of use of the discovery methods otherwise permitted under these rules and by any local rule shall be limited by the court if it determines that: (i) the discovery sought is unreasonably cumulative or duplicative, or is obtainable from some other source that is more convenient, less burdensome, or less expensive; (ii) the party seeking discovery has had ample opportunity by discovery in the action to obtain the information sought or; (iii) the burden or expense of the proposed discovery outweighs its likely benefit, taking into account the needs of the case, the amount in controversy, the parties’ resources, the importance of the issues at stake in the litigation, and the importance of the proposed discovery in resolving the issues. The court may act upon its own initiative after reasonable notice or pursuant to a motion under Rule 26(C)."

This is just my unlegal opinion but it seems to me the legal system isn’t designed for a defendant‘s defense team to be taking on an investigator role and reinvestigating the case. Their role is to defend their client, not solve the crime. If they believe in his innocence then just go ahead and prove it. Somewhere along the way the defense of RA got thoroughly messed up and sidetracked including leaks of strategy and photos. I have at times wondered if R & B lost control and who really was in charge.

The ex-D admittedly hadn‘t reviewed nor received all the discovery when that memo was written so it must not be considered very important, unless it suits an agenda. Such an important filing as a Frank’s motion having the potential of changing the entire direction of the case and not bothering to be aware of all the State’s evidence? Astounding. And I still wonder who wrote it.

JMO
 
  • #876
Imagine having to hand over as discovery all the 50,000 tips received by LE. Imagine a defense team saying... in one of the tips... John George (sic) on 12/13/18 said that BG looked like Jim Shorter (sic) from down the road.

Did you investigate Jim Shorter fully? Where are your files on his investigation.

The truth being they got 10,000 of those "think it looks sort of like Joe Blow..." comments.. .that ALL get thrown to the bottom of the list as non-priority.

Is it the defenses right to have every single piece of the investigation? No

Good point! Otherwise the implication is virtually anybody could become named and accused of murder, used as a scapegoat by defense of the accused.

The ex-D were concerned about public shaming, so what of public blaming?

JMO
 
  • #877
Imagine having to hand over as discovery all the 50,000 tips received by LE. Imagine a defense team saying... in one of the tips... John George (sic) on 12/13/18 said that BG looked like Jim Shorter (sic) from down the road.

Did you investigate Jim Shorter fully? Where are your files on his investigation.

The truth being they got 10,000 of those "think it looks sort of like Joe Blow..." comments.. .that ALL get thrown to the bottom of the list as non-priority.

Is it the defenses right to have every single piece of the investigation? No
It’s rather disingenuous to not consider the actual events that occurred prior to the drafting of the Frank’s. The ex d didn’t create anything out of thin air and was proceeded by essentially an act that one can see in a similar light as a whistleblower:

“Further it is written that on May 1, 2023, the State of Indiana, by way of Prosecutor Nick Mc- Cleland(sp), received a letter from former Rushville Assistant Police Chief Todd Click, now retired. Click, Murphy and Ferency were three of the law enforcement officers who worked on the Delphi murder case, particularly focused on the Odinite angle as it intersected with suspects in Rushville Indiana.

After reading Richard Allen’s probable cause affidavit, Click became concerned that the information contained in Richard Allen’s affidavit pointing the finger at Richard Allen was far less compelling than the totality of the information that Detective Ferency, Detective Murphy and Officer Click had accumulated during the Rushville portion of the investigation.

The information Murphy, Ferency and Click had gathered during their investigation connected men who practiced Odinism in or near Delphi with another group of men who lived in Rushville and then connected both groups of men to the murders.

Click was concerned that for some reason the leadership of the investigative team had failed to share with Prosecutor McCleland( sp) the evidence gathered by Click, Ferency and Murphy. Click’s concerns led him to seek out a lawyer to assist him in the drafting of a letter. This letter was then sent to McCleland.

However, the Defense states that this letter was not provided to the Defense until after it was obvious from the last round of depositions that the Defense (who had doggedly pursued witnesses as far away as Georgia) would certainly be talking with Todd Click. McCleland(sp) had this letter in his possession for over four months before turning it over to the Defense. There can be no mistaking that this letter is exculpatory (tending or serving to clear from alleged fault or guilt) in nature and could have been used by the Defense as it prepared for upcoming depositions. However, it is apparent that McCleland(sp) only offered up the letter after it was obvious that the Defense team would soon be learning of the letter’s existence.

In other words, the Defense team would obviously be meeting with, or deposing Click in the next few weeks. Click most certainly would then reveal to the Defense at that time, that in April 2023, he (Click) had sent a letter containing exculpatory information to McCleland(sp), the defense alleges.

McLeland(sp) had two distinct choices at this point: 1) sit on the exculpatory evidence hoping that the Defense team would refocus its efforts on another angle of the investigation, or 2) disclose the exculpatory evidence claiming that the contents of the letter were overlooked in the volume of discovery.

He chose the latter.

Unfortunately for the State, neither approach explains away the fact that Click specifically directed the letter to McLeland himself and further, Click was so determined to ensure his information was consumed by McLeland, that he directed the information directly to McLeland, via certified mail. The letter is stamped “Received May 1, 2023, Carroll County Prosecutor.” Click’s report landed at ground zero; a prosecutor’s office with no more than two full-time prosecutors and a handful of full-time staff members, at best. It is not plausible that this exculpatory evidence could have been completely overlooked.

Not only did the prosecution withhold that letter from the Defense, according to the document, but law enforcement also withheld several other exculpatory pieces of evidence, including an 85-page compilation of reports by Click prepared in 2019 and several videos containing statements that support the Defense theory of Richard Allen’s innocence. This 85-page report detailed the investigative work performed by Click, Ferency, Murphy, and others, including the FBI.

Not only did Carroll County Detective Tony Liggett fail to include all this Odinite information in his Oct. 13, 2022 “Affidavit for Search Warrant” and not only did McCleland(sp) and the Unified Command withhold exculpatory evidence, Liggett also concealed damaging witness statements that devastate Liggett’s timeline – a timeline Liggett allegedly needed to be true in order to place Richard Allen at the trail when Abby and Libby were abducted. Additionally, Liggett lied in his affidavit about the statements of another key witness, further devastating Liggett’s timeline.”
 
  • #878
This is just my unlegal opinion but it seems to me the legal system isn’t designed for a defendant‘s defense team to be taking on an investigator role and reinvestigating the case. Their role is to defend their client, not solve the crime. If they believe in his innocence then just go ahead and prove it. Somewhere along the way the defense of RA got thoroughly messed up and sidetracked including leaks of strategy and photos. I have at times wondered if R & B lost control and who really was in charge.
IANAL but I do think that part of the defense attorney's role is to reinvestigate the case. They are often aided by PIs and there are even people whose entire career is to be a criminal defense investigator. The use of public defender investigators is written into Indiana law:
"Sec. 6. (a) A public defender may use a public defender investigator who is qualified under subsection (b) to assist the public defender in preparing for the criminal defense of indigent persons.
(b) To practice as a public defender investigator, an individual must:
(1) be at least twenty-one (21) years of age; and
(2) not have a conviction for a crime that has a direct bearing on the individual's ability to competently perform the duties of a public defender investigator.
(c) A public defender investigator may not perform any duties for the public defender that constitute the unauthorized practice of law."
The ex-D admittedly hadn‘t reviewed nor received all the discovery when that memo was written so it must not be considered very important, unless it suits an agenda. Such an important filing as a Frank’s motion having the potential of changing the entire direction of the case and not bothering to be aware of all the State’s evidence? Astounding. And I still wonder who wrote it.

JMO
How could they be aware of the state's evidence when it hasn't been turned over by the state?

Edit by me: Not to mention, some of the state's evidence has been lost by the state.
(It is apparently not considered "grossly negligent" to lose multiple interviews done within the week of the murders of 2 innocent little girls, and also to lose police reports relating to a reported confession.)

1700089974529.png
1700089963314.png

(The state did not refute that they "lost" this evidence, btw).
 
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  • #879
Do you have a link for the "no chain of custody" info? I hadn't heard that was the case. TIA
In the search warrant, there is a return on the items taken from RA's home. The chain of custody page is missing for all three parts of it. And yes, I know all the reasons it's not there but as far as we know, it isn't there.
 
  • #880
IANAL but I do think that part of the defense attorney's role is to reinvestigate the case. They are often aided by PIs and there are even people whose entire career is to be a criminal defense investigator. The use of public defender investigators is written into Indiana law:
"Sec. 6. (a) A public defender may use a public defender investigator who is qualified under subsection (b) to assist the public defender in preparing for the criminal defense of indigent persons.
(b) To practice as a public defender investigator, an individual must:
(1) be at least twenty-one (21) years of age; and
(2) not have a conviction for a crime that has a direct bearing on the individual's ability to competently perform the duties of a public defender investigator.
(c) A public defender investigator may not perform any duties for the public defender that constitute the unauthorized practice of law."

No where in this job description does it indicate a public defender investigator is expected to reinvestigate a case to determine who the ‘real killer’ is. It appears the role supports and assists the public defender in preparing for trial. The ex-D might’ve indeed been successful in convicting the Odins except that‘s not who’s charged and set for a criminal trial in this case, sort of my point.

How could they be aware of the state's evidence when it hasn't been turned over by the state?

True, they couldn’t and a deadline of November 1st was recently agreed upon. So if for some reason the full discovery couldn’t be provided from the state, maybe best to wait on the Frank’s motion, rather than base it on information ‘that’s not entirely true’. Meanwhile look at condensing it and focus on what’s within their control?

JMO
 
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