IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[susiQ]

They tested lots of spit, if that's what you are going for.

That would include EF and BH and PW.



JMO

I would certainly hope so! There are a few others too that should have been tested, like RAbr and JM. Let’s be thorough!

I don’t think anyone here wants the wrong person spending the rest of their days in Westville. Although to be honest, I doubt the others would be silly enough to spit at the crime scene. DNA ya know.

 

[Jurisprudence]

Not pro Bono. And before that they were taking a HUGE pay cut as public defenders, making abt 5-10x less than they would in their private practices.

[And before that] they went above and beyond even as PDs under a significant pay cut. The investigation, the pleadings, the work they actually put into this case was outstanding and nothing short of impressive. I know there are people who disagree with this on a personal level but from my perspective personally, it was impressive, and many in the legal community recognized it, including I would bet, NM.
But, jmo

 

[steeltowngirl]

If you mean “Did they have an option to refuse representing RA as public defenders?” Then yes, from my understanding, they could have said no, bc they have their own private practice/are not regularly public defenders. I believe they were approached/asked, and they said yes (knowing they would take a pay cut).

Yes, thanks, that is what I meant.

It is all so odd. Gull was the one that released the PCA, but kept the gag order. Defense wanted privacy. Then they turn about face and release the memorandum. Then the leak, quit or got fired, then want back on the case.

Dec. 9, 2022 - Request for privacy
Richard Allen's attorneys say they want their planned defense kept secret from everyone, including the prosecutor in the Delphi murders case.

Richard Allen case | Full timeline and events so far

A status hearing held in Fort Wayne on Thursday will allow Judge Francis Gull to address both the defense and prosecution ahead of Richard Allen's jury trial.

www.wthr.com

 

[Ravenmoon]

That's a good thing. But if they took their DNA and tested it against the sample found at the crime scene and it wasn't a match, why not turn over those reports demonstrating how those people were exonerated? And, if they were exonerated because their DNA wasn't a match, why wasn't RA exonerated since his wasn't a match? I'm not really asking you this, I'm just thinking out loud. You can start to see the problems here.
jmo

Speculating:

Well, let's say.... for the sake of argument that there was hair at the crime scene?
What if that hair had DNA on the follicle?
What if that hair follicle came from someone else that lived at the house? ( Not RA)
Or..... what if it was a pet's hair/ fur?

 

[susiQ]

The pro bono is puzzling. But they were appointed as public defenders. Did they have an option to refuse?

I would imagine no, unless they were weighed down with other cases, but others could speak to this better than I.

The fact that they would offer to do this pro bono, tells me they are convinced of his innocence and committed to helping him. These are by all accounts experienced attorneys. This isn’t their first rodeo and likely have a pretty good feel about who is guilty and who isn’t. Just like IE knows BM is guilty, she has the discovery, but she‘s got a job to do, and is getting paid quite nicely for it from “money bags.” This is different. I feel it in my bones. I know that sounds really corny, but why would they come back and fight for the opportunity to defend a guilty man, for NOTHING. Makes no sense whatsoever.

I’m very suspicious of the timing of the leak and what it has done to RA’s case. In my humble opinion, the one that benefitted the most from it was the P and LE. What better time to derail the case than when their misdeeds were being exposed. Too freakin’ convenient for my liking. JMHO

 

[Jurisprudence]

Speculating:

Well, let's say.... for the sake of argument that there was hair at the crime scene?
What if that hair had DNA on the follicle?
What if that hair follicle came from someone else that lived at the house? ( Not RA)
Or..... what if it was a pet's hair/ fur?

You mean like Rex Heuermann and Gilgo. Well, I think you know the answer to this: The public knows. And, once an arrest was made that information got turned over. We're not seeing anything like this here and that's the problem imo.

 

[zh0r4]

Speculating:

Well, let's say.... for the sake of argument that there was hair at the crime scene?
What if that hair had DNA on the follicle?
What if that hair follicle came from someone else that lived at the house?
Or..... what if it was a pet's hair/ fur?

IMO if a perps hair, pet hair from their pet (would be harder to delineate depending on the breed/animal from my understanding), perps family member, any hair containing testable DNA, was found at the CS, that would tie them to the crime scene.

If a victim’s hair was found in the house of the/a perp, it would also tie the perp to the CS (via the victim’s hair)-unless the perp was a family member or roommate of the victim. If that makes sense.

 

[Ravenmoon]

You mean like Rex Heuermann and Gilgo. Well, I think you know the answer to this: The public knows. And, once an arrest was made that information got turned over. We're not seeing anything like this here and that's the problem imo.

You almost lost me for a minute.

I see no reason for the exD to say that pet hair from RA's home was found at the CS.

JMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

IMO if a perps hair, pet hair from their pet (would be harder to delineate depending on the breed/animal from my understanding), perps family member, any hair containing testable DNA, was found at the CS, that would tie them to the crime scene.

If a victim’s hair was found in the house of the/a perp, it would also tie the perp to the CS (via the victim’s hair)-unless the perp was a family member or roommate of the victim. If that makes sense.

Okay... buuuttttt, the statement was that RA's DNA wasn't at the CS.

My speculation was about the DNA being found at the CS may have come in the way of DNA from a pet or a family member of RA.


JMO

 

[Jurisprudence]

Do we have access to Holeman’s and Liggett’s full depositions? The defense memorandum didn’t discuss the evidence against RA, and I would not expect it to, since it’s the defense‘s body of work.

I can’t recall, did the memorandum say where RA went when he left the trail before the murders?

Not that I've seen. Would like to see them if anyone knows of an outlet that's been able to get ahold of them.

 

[zh0r4]

Okay... buuuttttt, the statement was that there was RA's DNA wasn't at the CS.

My speculation was about the DNA being found at the CS may have come in the way of DNA from a pet or a family member of RA.


JMO

I understand and respect your opinion.

Those things would be considered “connecting him to the CS”. Any connection would be a connection. JMO.

 

[Jurisprudence]

Okay... buuuttttt, the statement was that there was RA's DNA wasn't at the CS.

My speculation was about the DNA being found at the CS may have come in the way of DNA from a pet or a family member of RA.


JMO

Oh I think I misunderstood your post. Sorry about that. Not sure if you're following Gilgo but you pretty closely described the Rex Heuermann DNA. On your Q, I don't think they'd be as excited as they were back in 2017 (posted on here many times and again below) if it was a pet hair. They certainly wouldn't say it belonged to the killer as Misty's link said. And all other DNA (even the pet actually) they'd have an answer by now. Not only did they fast-track it, it's been nearly 7 years since they collected it. So, I think it's safe to say in no uncertain terms that they know (and have stated with certainty) that RA's DNA was not present. If it was a situation like Gilgo where his wife's DNA was there, that would be evidence they would have disclosed as part of him being at scene as they did in Gilgo (unless they planned to arrest the wife instead). Either way, we'd know about it.

jmo

DNA evidence is top priority in Delphi murder investigation

INDIANAPOLIS, Ind.- On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found mu…

fox59.com

 

[Jurisprudence]

I would imagine no, unless they were weighed down with other cases, but others could speak to this better than I.

The fact that they would offer to do this pro bono, tells me they are convinced of his innocence and committed to helping him. These are by all accounts experienced attorneys. This isn’t their first rodeo and likely have a pretty good feel about who is guilty and who isn’t. Just like IE knows BM is guilty, she has the discovery, but she‘s got a job to do, and is getting paid quite nicely for it from “money bags.” This is different. I feel it in my bones. I know that sounds really corny, but why would they come back and fight for the opportunity to defend a guilty man, for NOTHING. Makes no sense whatsoever.

I’m very suspicious of the timing of the leak and what it has done to RA’s case. In my humble opinion, the one that benefitted the most from it was the P and LE. What better time to derail the case than when their misdeeds were being exposed. Too freakin’ convenient for my liking. JMHO

For more than nothing because remember while they are handling this massive case (at a huge loss), they are also not signing new clients. A huge hit.

jmo

 

[FromGermany1]

That certainly is the question isn’t it? Was EF at the hospital with Rod A? I’m sorry to say, as developmentally challenged as EF may be, I marvel that he could mistake spitting just anywhere and spitting on a dead girl’s body and remembering that he puts sticks in her hair.

For the record, I have worked with developmentally challenged individuals that function at his level and I can tell you, they would know the difference. I have an 8 year old grandson that could tell you whether he peed in the bush or went into the house to go to the bathroom. JMHO.

Ed:gr

Apropos EF: I can't understand, why someone, who isn't mentally disabled himself and is going to murder 2 teenagers, should have taken EF with him to the crime scene. A developmentally challenged person like EF would have jeopardized the whole secret operation, with a little bit of bad luck, on the first day (Febr 13th) already.

 

[mrjitty]

If local LE are so corrupt, why didn't they "frame" someone much sooner?

RSBM - right. The conspiracy doesn't make much sense. How did they know to plant the bullet years earlier?
Why didn't they frame the guy who was cat fishing the victims and no one would blink an eye at?

 

[girlhasnoname]

Probably because investigators "invited" Richard Allen and his wife, Kathy Allen, to speak to them and to follow up on that interview done in 2017.

State's Objection to Defendant's Motion to Suppress
pg 2
Judge Gull's document dump

I can't wait to see the transcript or documentation of that interview.

 

[mrjitty]

Looks like she's trying to clean up the CCS so that she can argue the first writ is moot. She'd previously entered orders directing the Clerk to remove the 10/25 and 10/26 filings from the CCS. Now she's ordering them added back to the CCS.

This is a lot of the relief that was requested in the first writ. Still doesn't look like she's following the ACR rules regarding making the entire Franks Memo confidential though. No CCS entry, no ACR form explaining why it's confidential. But hey, it's progress.

Yes - this is a good sign.

Interesting she confirms the failure of the Defence to redact. Kind of reveals their game.

 

[mrjitty]

[sbbm]

This is the biggest "tell" here imo. Always has been, but is especially front of mind now.
jmo

In what ways have they fought tooth and nail?

Did they schedule a bail hearing? Have they filed for evidentiary hearings? Did they get any evidence excluded? We were nearly at trial!

 

[mrjitty]

To my mind, attempts to mine the tea leaves of pretrial procedure are somewhat futile and a waste of time, especially if there is no prelim.

Sometimes interesting legal issues arise - like a true Franks Hearing would raise interesting argument and analysis of evidence but at the end of the day, if the warrant was upheld, it wouldn't have any relevance to the ultimate trial.

Same can be said about arguments re discovery.

Trying to work out what evidence the prosecution does or does not have, without hearing from the experts, seeing the expert reports, and hearing from the witnesses is a bit of a futile endeavour IMO.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I guess it could have technically been Libby’s DNA found on the tree to write the F? Does anyone remember DNA that was too degraded to test being mentioned? It seems I read somewhere there was a DNA sample but it was untestable?

Either way, RA’s DNA wasn’t on the bodies/at the CS according to LE.

I don’t recall the DNA being untestable, but as of 2018, it allegedly had not been run through familial testing, perhaps because it was not approved for use in Indiana, according to a Change.org petition.

“Meanwhile, if there's DNA from the Delphi killings, it's not been run through familial DNA search. Yet.”

Sign the Petition

Familial DNA Testing For Identifying Killer in Indiana Murder/Rape Cases

www.change.org

Familial DNA search might unlock Delphi killer's identity

Hidden in our bodily fluids might be the identity of suspected criminals whom we call family.

www.jconline.com