IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[Jurisprudence]

Imagine having to hand over as discovery all the 50,000 tips received by LE. Imagine a defense team saying... in one of the tips... John George (sic) on 12/13/18 said that BG looked like Jim Shorter (sic) from down the road.

Did you investigate Jim Shorter fully? Where are your files on his investigation.

The truth being they got 10,000 of those "think it looks sort of like Joe Blow..." comments.. .that ALL get thrown to the bottom of the list as non-priority.

Is it the defenses right to have every single piece of the investigation? No

Well, a defendant needs to know the evidence that will be used against him or her in order to adequately prepare for trial and comport with its right to see and confront its accusers and we should all want this so that when the right person is convicted, it actually sticks. moo Does it mean every single piece of paper? No. But it does mean all evidence they will use against the defendant and all evidence obtained from their investigation that may be exculpatory or lead to exculpatory evidence including evidence that lends itself to the creation of reasonable doubt. They can't hide it.

And the defense has to do its own independent investigation. Just imagine how many convictions would be challenged for ineffective assistance of counsel if defense counsel did nothing but accept the state's case and the states pov and theory, didn't vet it/verify it, investigate it, and instead just accepted without question any evidence the state decided to produce to them in discovery, whether it was complete or not. They simply take the state's word for it and show up in court prepared with nothing else.

jmo

 

[Ward Thisperer]

No where in this job description does it indicate a public defender investigator is expected to reinvestigate a case to determine who the ‘real killer’ is. It appears the role supports and assists the public defender in preparing for trial. The ex-D might’ve indeed been successful in convicting the Odins except that‘s not who’s charged and set for a criminal trial in this case, sort of my point.

What Is a Public Defender Investigator?

What Is a Public Defender Investigator?. A public defender investigator is a private investigator who assists public defender attorneys. State and county governments typically hire investigators to help gather and analyze evidence in criminal and civil tr

work.chron.com

As a well known defense strategy is to identify an alternate perpetrator to commit a crime (Third Party Guilt / Some Other Guy Did It),

https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2517&context=luclj

And in order to develop this defense, one likely will need to investigate it,
And that Indiana public defenders are allowed by law to use investigators in supporting their activities,
It certainly does follow that RA's defense attorneys are acting as one would expect defense attorneys to act in putting on a criminal defense.

True, they couldn’t and a deadline of November 1st was recently agreed upon. So if for some reason the full discovery couldn’t be provided from the state, maybe best to wait on the Frank’s motion, rather than base it on information ‘that’s not entirely true’. Meanwhile look at condensing it and focus on what’s within their control?

JMO

I would have loved to see what NM found to be "not entirely true" at the Frank's Hearing, it's unfortunate that he found the preferable course of action to be pushing for the D to be DQed. That doesn't give me a whole lot of faith that the facts are on his side.

 

[MistyWaters]

Well, a defendant needs to know the evidence that will be used against him or her in order to adequately prepare for trial and comport with its right to see and confront its accusers and we should all want this so that when the right person is convicted, it actually sticks. moo Does it mean every single piece of paper? No. But it does mean all evidence they will use against the defendant and all evidence obtained from their investigation that may be exculpatory or lead to exculpatory evidence including evidence that lends itself to the creation of reasonable doubt. They can't hide it.

And the defense has to do its own independent investigation. Just imagine how many convictions would be challenged for ineffective assistance of counsel if defense counsel did nothing but accept the state's case and the states pov and theory, didn't vet it/verify it, investigate it, and instead just accepted without question any evidence the state decided to produce to them in discovery, whether it was complete or not. They simply take the state's word for it and show up in court prepared with nothing else.

jmo

Are you aware of an example where the defense was given the liberty to prosecute an unrelated person or entity during a defendants trial?

 

[MistyWaters]

As a well known defense strategy is to identify an alternate perpetrator to commit a crime (Third Party Guilt / Some Other Guy Did It),

https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2517&context=luclj

And in order to develop this defense, one likely will need to investigate it,
And that Indiana public defenders are allowed by law to use investigators in supporting their activities,
It certainly does follow that RA's defense attorneys are acting as one would expect defense attorneys to act in putting on a criminal defense.

Sure I agree with that. It’s typically accomplished by identifying weaknesses in the investigation of the defendant or through questioning of unsavoury key witnesses. But naming a SODDI who’s unrelated to the case - are you saying you’d expect that individual be required to plead their innocence on the stand, one who wouldn’t otherwise be required to testify? So then the P would be required to call witnesses in defense of poor Joe Smuck, testifying why his alibi checked out. The question becomes who’d on trial anyway? I just don’t see that happening.

I would have loved to see what NM found to be "not entirely true" at the Frank's Hearing, it's unfortunate that he found the preferable course of action to be pushing for the D to be DQed. That doesn't give me a whole lot of faith that the facts are on his side.

I would too, even the blatant lies. The decisions made by the new defense will be revealing IMO.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

Sure I agree with that. It’s typically accomplished by identifying weaknesses in the investigation of the defendant or through questioning of unsavoury key witnesses. But naming a SODDI who’s unrelated to the case - are you saying you’d expect that individual be required to plead their innocence on the stand, one who wouldn’t otherwise be required to testify? So then the P would be required to call witnesses in defense of poor Joe Smuck, testifying why his alibi checked out. The question becomes who’d on trial anyway? I just don’t see that happening.


I would too, even the blatant lies. The decisions made by the new defense will be revealing IMO.

I think the way the defense will frame it at trial is to interrogate various members of LE about the investigation and the evidence against these other individuals. They aren’t focusing on anyone unrelated to the case, they are honing in on people who were investigated by LE pretty intensely. These include:
- an individual who was interviewed 3 times by LE and whose social media posts were submitted via tips and investigated by LE
- an individual who was interviewed multiple times by LE and gave DNA to LE, and took a polygraph
- an individual whose sisters reported multiple confessions to LE, who was then interviewed by LE multiple times, whose social media was noted in LE reports, and who asked an LE officer about spitting on the girls

I don’t think the defense would want to get the actual people on the stand, they would just need to show that there were other promising investigative angles that create reasonable doubt re: RA. I don’t know if they would even call others involved like the sisters, they could just show videos and reports and talk with LE witnesses.

NAL JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

Interesting, do you have any links showing a conviction in which unspent bullet identification was crucial evidence?

Not the OP but jumping off your post ...

Sorry I didn't have time to go through these various Google hits, but there are certainly many convictions where unspent bullets were part of the evidence, not the totality of the evidence.

IMO, if ballistics are able to match a spent bullet to the lands and grooves in the barrel and that constitutes evidence, it is reasonable that ballistics matching an unspent bullet to the extractor / chamber markings would be of equal value as evidence.

It's also possible to get touch DNA from a bullet casing:

from: A new method of DNA testing could solve more shootings

A new method of DNA testing could solve more shootings​

Criminologists thought it was impossible to get DNA off of shell casings, but a technique pioneered in the Netherlands is having notable results

 

[MistyWaters]

I think the way the defense will frame it at trial is to interrogate various members of LE about the investigation and the evidence against these other individuals. They aren’t focusing on anyone unrelated to the case, they are honing in on people who were investigated by LE pretty intensely. These include:
- an individual who was interviewed 3 times by LE and whose social media posts were submitted via tips and investigated by LE
- an individual who was interviewed multiple times by LE and gave DNA to LE, and took a polygraph
- an individual whose sisters reported multiple confessions to LE, who was then interviewed by LE multiple times, whose social media was noted in LE reports, and who asked an LE officer about spitting on the girls

I don’t think the defense would want to get the actual people on the stand, they would just need to show that there were other promising investigative angles that create reasonable doubt re: RA. I don’t know if they would even call others involved like the sisters, they could just show videos and reports and talk with LE witnesses.

NAL JMO

I somehow really doubt that line of questioning would ever be allowed by the judge because once again, it would follow that LE would need to be given the opportunity to share the rational why the investigation of certain people was dropped including other details, alibis, etc.

Neither the judge nor the prosecution would ever allow a trial to get so out of control that it resembles a public inquiry of a police investigation.

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

But didn't they say that the DNA was not something you would expect? Maybe like spit or animal hair?

Was it this?

In the three years since the murders, police have released very little information about the crime scene, including how the two teens were killed and what kind of physical evidence was present.

But rumors have long circulated that the crime scene was bizarre and shocking to investigators, with unusual elements that police have been reluctant to reveal publicly.

Now, Ives reveals that the crime scene was nothing like murders he had encountered in the past, where typically a body is found with some evidence such as shell casings present.

'There was a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene,' Ives said. 'And it's probably not what you would imagine, or what people would think I'm talking about.'

'It was just not your normal "a person was killed here" crime scene, that's probably all I can say about it,' Ives said.

Ives said that the scene was 'odd' and displayed at least three 'signatures', which are unique behaviors by the killer.

However, Ives raised the possibility that elements of the scene had been staged in an attempt to trick investigators by sending them down a false path.

Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens speaks out

Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, vanished on February 13, 2017 while hiking the Monon High Bridge Trail in Delphi, Indiana. Their bodies were discovered the following day.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Ward Thisperer]

Not the OP but jumping off your post ...

Sorry I didn't have time to go through these various Google hits, but there are certainly many convictions where unspent bullets were part of the evidence, not the totality of the evidence.

IMO, if ballistics are able to match a spent bullet to the lands and grooves in the barrel and that constitutes evidence, it is reasonable that ballistics matching an unspent bullet to the extractor / chamber markings would be of equal value as evidence.

It's also possible to get touch DNA from a bullet casing:

from: A new method of DNA testing could solve more shootings

On the first page of results, none were about ballistic identification of an unspent bullet to an individual gun. The closest was the type of bullet leading to one of two hunters in a poaching case. Many cases involve unspent bullets being part of evidence but I’ve looked into this a few times now and haven’t found another case of an unspent bullet being identified to an individual gun.

I don’t have much experience looking for a specific type of case though so maybe others know better ways to search.

 

[MistyWaters]

There’s four different techniques that could link RA to the bullet found at the crime scene -
- matching an unspent bullet to a gun.
- recovery of DNA from the unspent bullet.
- lifting fingerprints from an unspent bullet.
- matching two different bullets to the same batch (CS bullet with another from RA’s home taken during search).

 

[Emma Peel]

But didn't they say that the DNA was not something you would expect? Maybe like spit or animal hair?

Did someone say "spit" ?
or "animal hair" ?
in an interview?

Does anyone recall this discussion - was it a presser or an article?

I ask b/c I feel like I remember reading this as well ... but not early on.

The cat thing came up about the time RA was arrested; did the spit thing come up at the same time?

 

[TheVisual]

Did someone say "spit" ?
or "animal hair" ?
in an interview?

Does anyone recall this discussion - was it a presser or an article?

I ask b/c I feel like I remember reading this as well ... but not early on.

The cat thing came up about the time RA was arrested; did the spit thing come up at the same time?

No, I just supposed that the something you wouldn't expect could be animal hair or spit as they had been mentioned in investigation. Sorry, I misled you.

 

[Emma Peel]

No, I just supposed that the something you wouldn't expect could be animal hair or spit as they had been mentioned in investigation. Sorry, I misled you.

it's okay - no misleading. just reminding.

 

[MistyWaters]

In the search warrant, there is a return on the items taken from RA's home. The chain of custody page is missing for all three parts of it. And yes, I know all the reasons it's not there but as far as we know, it isn't there.

I was wondering about this. The search warrant was executed on Sept 13, 2022 so it wouldn’t make sense for the chain of custody to be attached to the SW as the chain would only be starting, assuming also the bullet was later submitted for testing at one or more labs.

Apparently the record of the chain of custody of all evidence is contained in an evidence log, unlikely to be released to the public to prove it‘s there.

JMO

Chain of Custody and Why It Is Important in a Criminal Case — #LadyJustice Speaks

Proving chain of custody is critical, but it is not always easy. Learn how an experienced lawyer can successfully challenge chain of custody in a criminal case.

www.justcriminallaw.com

“To prove chain of custody at trial, law enforcement must be able to identify, at all times in the chain of custody, a particular person who is in control of a piece of evidence. This is done through an evidence log.”

 

[sunshineray]

I wish. I asked here last night if anyone knows of a media outlet or podcast creator that was able to grab them but no luck. So all we have are the pleadings incorporating them by reference. Those are sworn pleadings submitted to the court and the statements are pin cited to page and line.

jmo

See, e.g., page 129

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

184 Liggett depo. p. 80, lines 1-3.
185 Liggett depo. p. 80, lines 9-12.
186 Liggett depo. p. 80, lines 13-25
187 Holeman depo. p. 40, lines 14-19.
188 Holeman depo. p. 48, lines 20-25 and p. 49, lines 1-4.
189 Holeman depo. p. 50, lines 13-16.
190 Holeman depo. p. 51, lines 6-8.
191 Holeman depo. p. 53, lines 1-13.
192 Holeman depo. p. 57, lines 19-25 and p. 58, lines 1-4.
193 Holeman depo. p. 58, lines 1-20

I'd just like to read the questions and answers in context not possibly just cherry-picked by the D.

 

[sunshineray]

I think the way the defense will frame it at trial is to interrogate various members of LE about the investigation and the evidence against these other individuals. They aren’t focusing on anyone unrelated to the case, they are honing in on people who were investigated by LE pretty intensely. These include:
- an individual who was interviewed 3 times by LE and whose social media posts were submitted via tips and investigated by LE
- an individual who was interviewed multiple times by LE and gave DNA to LE, and took a polygraph
- an individual whose sisters reported multiple confessions to LE, who was then interviewed by LE multiple times, whose social media was noted in LE reports, and who asked an LE officer about spitting on the girls

I don’t think the defense would want to get the actual people on the stand, they would just need to show that there were other promising investigative angles that create reasonable doubt re: RA. I don’t know if they would even call others involved like the sisters, they could just show videos and reports and talk with LE witnesses.

NAL JMO

When does it cross the line though. I remember when OJ was on trial. The defense tried to say it was drug dealers/people FR hung around with and since she was Nicole Brown's BF ...there you go, an alternative group of possible killers. OJ's defense didn't name names of those people in court documents or in front of a jury.

RA's defense have slandered 5 not charged individuals in a court document they released to the public. Not only have they released their names but also their locations. I agree with Misty Waters, it's like they want to try those men in RA's case.

 

[zh0r4]

“The Indiana Public Defender Council's brief filed Thursday with the Indiana Supreme Court indicates its advise is for Allen's original public defenders — Andrew Baldwin and Brad Rozzi — to be reinstated, reversing Gull's Oct. 31 order removing them as Allen's attorneys.

The public defender council's brief conclusion states, "The issues presented in this case justify the intervention of this Court at this stage to preserve the independence of defense counsel and the integrity of the public defense structures established by the General Assembly. The Court can uphold these essential values by reinstating Mr. Allen’s initial and desired counsel. ..

<snip>

The Indiana Public Defender Council argued that the removal of Baldwin and Rozzi damages the faith Allen — as well as other defendants in the state who are forced to use public defenders — have in their legal council.

A judge's removal of public defenders also has a chilling effect on the quality of legal defense an accused might receive.

"The removal of appointed counsel for broad or vague reasons undermines the independence of the defense function and extinguishes a longstanding rapport with a client who must now languish in prison for an additional nine months," the public defender council's brief states.

It argues that public defenders who rely on a judge to employment "might be reluctant to represent his or her client as vigorously as necessary for fear of alienating the judge."

"The American Bar Association, among other groups, has long emphasized the critical importance of public defender independence," the brief stated.

The Indiana Public Defender Council requested Wednesday to file briefs as an impartial adviser in the motions before the Indiana Supreme Court for writs to block Gull from dismissing Allen's original public defenders, Baldwin and Rozzi.“

Public defender council supports Delphi suspect's original attorneys

Public defender council supports Delphi suspect's original attorneys

The Indiana Public Defender Council weighed in with the Indiana Supreme Court on Judge Frances Gull's dismissal of public defenders for Richard Allen.

www.jconline.com

 

[mrjitty]

How can he be innocent when he has confessed to the crime?

That literally makes zero sense!!!

Once again he has confessed to his wife he had murdered them. So how exactly is he innocent?

Richard Allen confessed to killing Indiana girls as investigators say "sharp object" used in murders, documents reveal

Richard Allen confessed multiple times to killing Abigail Williams and Liberty German in phone calls to his wife and mother while in prison, according to court documents.

www.cbsnews.com

The Odinist prison guards forced him to confess!

Don’t laugh. That is the actual defence case.

 

[mrjitty]

You forgot to add
" In a court of law."

I think this gets forgotten.

Innocent till proven guilty relates to burden of proof at trial. It makes less sense as a literal status. He is after all imprisoned by the state in a maximum security prison because a certain evidential standard of suspicion was reached.

I do not know if he is in fact guilty because we haven’t seen the evidence but there are significant reasons to believe he is. Certainly I don’t presume him to be innocent. Rather the state must make its case.

 

[katydid23]

I’m still unclear how they can forbid him counsel of his choice that has offered to work pro bono?

They never really planned to follow through on that Pro Bono promise. A murder trial like this would bankrupt them if they didn't get paid.