IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[TL4S]

Thoughtful post, as always. Thank you.

Regarding the SW and its return. Out of all those items they took from his house and vehicle, it appears that the cartridge, gun and carpet scrap from the car where the only things they sent to the lab. We got results on the gun/cartridge, nothing on the carpet scrap. Since they did publish the finding on the gun/cartridge, I assume they would have published that result, too.

I researched testing on clothing and didn't come up with much of anything. I couldn't find out if they could test without the item being sent to the lab or even how long blood stains remain testable. Do you have any idea of how they could test clothing without sending the sample into the lab?

I'm left with thinking the SW return supports the affidavits stating they found no evidence tying RA to the crime scene.

That's a good point. The carpet scrap (were there no swabs sent to lab?) is so interesting because of the location it was taken from within the trunk. My first inclination to that location was probably due to it being a spot less contaminated by everyday use, but I'm not sure if they had other reasons. Either way, you're right, I haven't seen any public data on the results of that sample.

Other than the unaccounted for carpet sample results, there's really nothing in that return that sends up any red flags about items of evidence besides the gun/ammo. Could there be other sealed documents that contain something about other items taken/ tested from the home/vehicle? Why weren't more items, like clothing, sent to lab?

 

[FrostedGlass]

That's a good point. The carpet scrap (were there no swabs sent to lab?) is so interesting because of the location it was taken from within the trunk. My first inclination to that location was probably due to it being a spot less contaminated by everyday use, but I'm not sure if they had other reasons. Either way, you're right, I haven't seen any public data on the results of that sample.

Other than the unaccounted for carpet sample results, there's really nothing in that return that sends up any red flags about items of evidence besides the gun/ammo. Could there be other sealed documents that contain something about other items taken/ tested from the home/vehicle? Why weren't more items, like clothing, sent to lab?

They sent the carpet scrap from under the tire to the lab but didn't show the results like they did for the gun. I thought there might have been a stain of some sort that tripped their trigger but it didn't turn out to be anything suspicious.

They took his muddy boots. I'm surprised they didn't send the mud off for testing but maybe there was something about the boots that ruled them out.. the tread?

All the items taken should have been listed in this SW, shouldn't they? The copy we have is signed, dated and filed so I'm confident that's the final one. They waited until May 1, 2023 to file it.

I researched testing with luminal, thinking they might have tested any spots before sending them to the lab for further testing. However, there's no indication on the SW return that they did that.

SW beginning on Pg 112.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

 

[Megnut]

I agree that was a great post, but I personally think BR and AB have caused too much chaos and unprofessional conduct to be allowed to be anywhere near this case going forward.

JMO

I agree. Embedded in my post was an important IF. "If RA and his new defense team want help from the Baldwin and Rozzi pony show, bring 'em on. As consultants." I can't fathom his new team wanting his old team anywhere near RA because optics. It would not be in RA's best interest.... they'd just be free to....

JMO

 

[Megnut]

They sent the carpet scrap from under the tire to the lab but didn't show the results like they did for the gun. I thought there might have been a stain of some sort that tripped their trigger but it didn't turn out to be anything suspicious.

They took his muddy boots. I'm surprised they didn't send the mud off for testing but maybe there was something about the boots that ruled them out.. the tread?

All the items taken should have been listed in this SW, shouldn't they? The copy we have is signed, dated and filed so I'm confident that's the final one. They waited until May 1, 2023 to file it.

I researched testing with luminal, thinking they might have tested any spots before sending them to the lab for further testing. However, there's no indication on the SW return that they did that.

SW beginning on Pg 112.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

Ah! Perhaps the carpet had been removed or replaced! Just didn't think to or bother to remove the lower carpet under the spare tire. Perhaps there's evidence there!

Anything linking him, his car and that crime scene, done done done.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Ah! Perhaps the carpet had been removed or replaced! Just didn't think to or bother to remove the lower carpet under the spare tire. Perhaps there's evidence there!

Anything linking him, his car and that crime scene, done done done.

JMO

what kind of evidence do you think they were looking for under the tire?

 

[Megnut]

what kind of evidence do you think they were looking for under the tire?

It might be the only aged carpet remaining. Blood? Fibers?

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Thoughtful post, as always. Thank you.

Regarding the SW and its return. Out of all those items they took from his house and vehicle, it appears that the cartridge, gun and carpet scrap from the car where the only things they sent to the lab. We got results on the gun/cartridge, nothing on the carpet scrap. Since they did publish the finding on the gun/cartridge, I assume they would have published that result, too.

I researched testing on clothing and didn't come up with much of anything. I couldn't find out if they could test without the item being sent to the lab or even how long blood stains remain testable. Do you have any idea of how they could test clothing without sending the sample into the lab?

I'm left with thinking the SW return supports the affidavits stating they found no evidence tying RA to the crime scene.

I am assuming we aren’t informed of everything that was sent to a lab. They removed items of clothing from RA’s home. Surely they were swiped for DNA or sent to a lab. If they found clothing or personal belongings belonging to the girls they would have done same.
I think we simply don’t know.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

what kind of evidence do you think they were looking for under the tire?

Head scratcher for me. Always has been.

 

[Willow Knight]

That's a good point. The carpet scrap (were there no swabs sent to lab?) is so interesting because of the location it was taken from within the trunk. My first inclination to that location was probably due to it being a spot less contaminated by everyday use, but I'm not sure if they had other reasons. Either way, you're right, I haven't seen any public data on the results of that sample.

Other than the unaccounted for carpet sample results, there's really nothing in that return that sends up any red flags about items of evidence besides the gun/ammo. Could there be other sealed documents that contain something about other items taken/ tested from the home/vehicle? Why weren't more items, like clothing, sent to lab?

Could there be other sealed documents that contain something about other items taken/ tested from the home/vehicle?
This comment jumped out at me, seriously right out of my pc.

IMO, it all falls together now. If there are more sealed documents regarding evidence found during the search I can understand the judge VERY concerned about more leaks. There is a history of leaks, 'mistakes'. It would be imperative to protect knowledge obtained via a search until trial. RA deserves a fair trial AND Libby and Abby deserve justice. The judge may have felt she must put an end to this before more damage is done. I support her decision 100%.

As a side note another poster here had sent me a very informative pod of GH, he uses nearby cameras, eye witnesses, cell phone time stamps, and RA's statements. One can piece together RA's presumed/alleged movements from the time he parked near the trails until he returned to his car.

 

[Jurisprudence]

I don't believe for a minute that nothing was found at RA'S house that connects him to the crime scene. The EX-D would be shouting from the highest mountain. Why would they want that SW thrown out? Makes no sense if their was NOTHING there.

As data extraction...I believe that that could be a twisted statement. Cloud extraction is different, at least different enough that by stating " no data extraction links RA to the CS, " that could be technically true but also misleading.

Also, the way that the statements are worded, his phone and computers aren't linked to the Crime Scene, it doesn't say there is nothing Linking RA to the girls.

Plus, he had 13 or more phones. They only mention 1 single phone.


EBM, posted before I was finished

To not believe they don't have anything linking RA to the cs is to say you don't believe LE (Liggett and Holeman's testimony) bc it is from their depositions that this claim is made? If they had more evidence, cloud extraction or otherwise, that needed to be produced to defense. The depos were nearly a year after the search. I probably have more than 13 old phones thrown in a drawer collecting dust including flip phones that predated smart phones. I've kept them over the years in case I needed to reactivate them due to a problem water damage loss etc of the new phone I replaced it with.

jmo

 

[Ravenmoon]

To not believe they don't have anything linking RA to the cs is to say you don't believe LE (Liggett and Holeman's testimony) bc it is from their depositions that this claim is made? If they had more evidence, cloud extraction or otherwise, that needed to be produced to defense. The depos were nearly a year after the search. I probably have more than 13 old phones thrown in a drawer collecting dust including flip phones that predated smart phones. I've kept them over the years in case I needed to reactivate them due to a problem water damage loss etc of the new phone I replaced it with.

jmo

I believe that the exD has a good way of twisting words. I believe that there is a LOT missing in the testimony from LE.


There is NOTHING stating that everything was NOT handed over to the exD .

Matter of fact the exD themselves stated that they likely missed some details due to the overwhelming amount of discovery.


JMO

 

[Jurisprudence]

They took his muddy boots. I'm surprised they didn't send the mud off for testing but maybe there was something about the boots that rulewp-content/uploads/sites/21/20

[sbm]

They took muddy boots nearly 5.5 years later

I believe that the exD has a good way of twisting words. I believe that there is a LOT missing in the testimony from LE.


There is NOTHING stating that everything was NOT handed over to the exD .

Matter of fact the exD themselves stated that they likely missed some details due to the overwhelming amount of discovery.


JMO

I see where you are coming from now. But, I'm not so sure what they would expect to gain from twisting sworn testimony like that because they know the judge will see it with her own eyes. The depos are incorporated by reference to specific page and line and attached as exhibits. If there is a claim that the D cited to them in a manner completely out of context, the defense is seasoned enough to know that the judge would see this right away - and likely not be happy with them.

jmo

ETA
In moo, this would not help them but rather could only hurt them. They are the ones who brought the lack of evidence forward so it's fair game now. If JG had a hearing on this and believed they took the statements out of context she could make mention of this, maybe even intimating they are well aware this isn't true (i.e. there is more evidence) and that would really hurt their client.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Interesting (to me at least)

From a news article:

This is dated October 10th, 2023:

"Allen’s attorneys wrote that they had not filed an insanity defense, nor have they requested a competency evaluation of Allen, meaning his “mental state is not at issue in the guilt/innocence phase of this proceeding.”

Also, not sure if others knew or not On March 24th, 2023 a large amount of discovery was made available to the defense who sat down with RA to review. This is when RA started eating the paperwork. April 3rd, 2023 is when RA admits to killing girls.

I can't help but wonder if the paperwork that he ate included items taken from his house and car that links him to the crime scene.

This sequence of events really doesn't seem coincidental.

Delphi murder suspect’s attorneys ask judge to deny prosecution’s subpoena for medical, mental health records

EBM to add JMO

I'm putting together a timeline of events during his prison incarceration.
Are you sure that part I reddened is correct? Could you please link your source?

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I'm putting together a timeline of events during his prison incarceration.
Are you sure that part I reddened is correct? Could you please link your source?

Attorneys say Richard Allen is being mistreated at Westville Correctional Facility - Carroll County Comet



Attorneys for Allen delivered nearly 1,000 pages of police reports to him on March 24 with the intention of allowing Allen to assist in his own defense. He had not received the police reports as of April 3, which was last week.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I'm putting together a timeline of events during his prison incarceration.
Are you sure that part I reddened is correct? Could you please link your source?

I self reported the date so mods can snip it.
I will find it, I thought it was mentioned in the linked article.
It is mentioned in MSM... so now I will hunt it down.
Once found, I will repost.

JMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Attorneys say Richard Allen is being mistreated at Westville Correctional Facility - Carroll County Comet



Attorneys for Allen delivered nearly 1,000 pages of police reports to him on March 24 with the intention of allowing Allen to assist in his own defense. He had not received the police reports as of April 3, which was last week.

Thank youuuuu!!!
I knew it was out there!!

@FrostedGlass

Delphi records unsealed, Allen reportedly admits to killing teens

DELPHI — On April 3, Richard Allen, a Carroll County man accused in the February 2017 killing of Delphi teenagers Abby Williams and Libby German, called his wife from a

www.kokomotribune.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

Attorneys say Richard Allen is being mistreated at Westville Correctional Facility - Carroll County Comet



Attorneys for Allen delivered nearly 1,000 pages of police reports to him on March 24 with the intention of allowing Allen to assist in his own defense. He had not received the police reports as of April 3, which was last week.

Thank you. I read her statement to say he was eating his paperwork on March 24, which was what I was questioning.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

[sbm]

They took muddy boots nearly 5.5 years later


I see where you are coming from now. But, I'm not so sure what they would expect to gain from twisting sworn testimony like that because they know the judge will see it with her own eyes. The depos are incorporated by reference to specific page and line and attached as exhibits. If there is a claim that the D cited to them in a manner completely out of context, the defense is seasoned enough to know that the judge would see this right away - and likely not be happy with them.

jmo

ETA
In moo, this would not help them but rather could only hurt them. They are the ones who brought the lack of evidence forward so it's fair game now. If JG had a hearing on this and believed they took the statements out of context she could make mention of this, maybe even intimating they are well aware this isn't true (i.e. there is more evidence) and that would really hurt their client.

One of the issues that JG had with Ex D is that they do mislead in motions when it can be easily proven false.
Example: their Motion to request transfer was easily proven false by testimony by the warden.
Defense stated RA’s cell was 6x10 “ no bigger than a dog kennel”
False- Cell is 8 1/2 x 12
Defense stated that RA was only being permitted to shower 1 -2 times a week
False- RA was permitted to shower 3 times a week
Defense stated he was forced to wear soiled clothing
False-RA was provided clean clothes 3 times a week and allowed to purchase additional socks, shirts and shoes.
Defense stated RA is sleeping on mattress on floor
False Cell is equipped mattress on secured bed frame
Defense stated that RA was afforded very little rec time.
False- RA is afforded one hour of rec time 5 times a week.
Defense stated that RA was not afforded any opportunity to see his wife or family members for 5 months.
False-RA was permitted to have face to face meetings with his family.

The fact far the FM was so lengthy and attachments surpassing 1200 pages was IMO by design.
Makes it more burdensome to find proof of false statements.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Thank youuuuu!!!
I knew it was out there!!

@FrostedGlass

Delphi records unsealed, Allen reportedly admits to killing teens

DELPHI — On April 3, Richard Allen, a Carroll County man accused in the February 2017 killing of Delphi teenagers Abby Williams and Libby German, called his wife from a

www.kokomotribune.com

Here is what you said in quotes. Below is what the Emergency Order said.
RA didn't see those docs until almost a week later.

Also, not sure if others knew or not On March 24th, 2023 a large amount of discovery was made available to the defense who sat down with RA to review. This is when RA started eating the paperwork.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

Emergency Order To modify Safekeeping Order Filed 4/5/23
pg 243
I. Attorneys for Mr. Allen delivered nearly 1,000 pages of police reports to Mr. Allen on Friday, March 24, 2023, with the intention of seeking their client's cooperation in his own defense. As of Monday, April 3'", 2023, said information has yet to be provided to Mr. Allen.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Here is what you said in quotes. Below is what the Emergency Order said.
RA didn't see those docs until almost a week later.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

Emergency Order To modify Safekeeping Order Filed 4/5/23
pg 243
I. Attorneys for Mr. Allen delivered nearly 1,000 pages of police reports to Mr. Allen on Friday, March 24, 2023, with the intention of seeking their client's cooperation in his own defense. As of Monday, April 3'", 2023, said information has yet to be provided to Mr. Allen.

Okay?
It was sequential, which is the point I was ( poorly, apparently) attempting to make.
Please feel free to ask mods to snip


JMO