Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #111

[Charlot123]

Just curious. If a drug king pin knocks off several people or has someone else kill them to exact revenge for snitching, stealing or whatever, should we call him a serial killer?

I have heard this version. The drug dude is a stupid blunt macho type, this "sophistication" is not his style. JMO.

 

[Charlot123]

We know SKs have cooling off periods, sometimes for many years.

I wonder how long this guy will go, or how long he “went” (IF he is in fact a SK which I think he is, moo).

Again, maybe there are other cases out there, DV, assaults, murders, UIDs, who knows what else, that have happened SINCE Delphi. Perhaps in another state.

BTW, should we check only girls/women deaths or boys/males, too?

 

[Charlot123]

Does anyone know if there is a backlog at Parabon, and if so how long? I’m asking this in reference to not only this case but another another case, ( @mocity ‘s step sister, Cheryl Henry. They have been waiting eons and I’m trying to figure out if the backlog is on the part of Parabon, another lab or HPD.)

Imo, it would be good for us to know here and in other cases as well, if and what the backlog is, as we head into this new age of familial DNA, etc.

Pulling Parabon quote re: Abby Libby, CeCe Moore is referenced iirc. I’m wondering if this has already been processed? Iirc that quote came out regarding/after April Tinley’s case:

Several reference quotes here:
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #88

ETA:
-it says Parabon declined an interview:

“In 2018 came fresh hope with the arrest of John Miller, who admitted to killing 8-year-old April Tinsley in Ft. Wayne 30 years earlier.

That case was solved with DNA evidence by Parabon Nanolabs. Investigators in the Delphi case worked closely with those who cracked the Tinsley case to see if their methods or findings could help solve the murders of Abby and Libby. Parabon Nanolabs declined an interview and state police would not say if the same test was being used in the investigation.“

Respectfully, John Miller left used condoms on the place of killing several years later, taunting the police. Parabon had enough of his DNA,

The Delphi case was a contaminated scene. If there is DNA, it may not be clear cut, and then, Gedmatch...

 

[Boxer]

Respectfully, John Miller left used condoms on the place of killing several years later, taunting the police. Parabon had enough of his DNA,

The Delphi case was a contaminated scene. If there is DNA, it may not be clear cut, and then, Gedmatch...

Why do think the crime scene was contaminated?

 

[tresir2012]

Why do think the crime scene was contaminated?

Carter said this in a recent interview and mentioned a 1000 searchers the first night. LE had stood down at approx 11 p.m. but some searchers were there till 3 a.m. I believe. MOO

 

[tresir2012]

Does anyone know if there is a backlog at Parabon, and if so how long? I’m asking this in reference to not only this case but another another case, ( @mocity ‘s step sister, Cheryl Henry. They have been waiting eons and I’m trying to figure out if the backlog is on the part of Parabon, another lab or HPD.)

Imo, it would be good for us to know here and in other cases as well, if and what the backlog is, as we head into this new age of familial DNA, etc.

Pulling Parabon quote re: Abby Libby, CeCe Moore is referenced iirc. I’m wondering if this has already been processed? Iirc that quote came out regarding/after April Tinley’s case:

Several reference quotes here:
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #88

ETA:
-it says Parabon declined an interview:

“In 2018 came fresh hope with the arrest of John Miller, who admitted to killing 8-year-old April Tinsley in Ft. Wayne 30 years earlier.

That case was solved with DNA evidence by Parabon Nanolabs. Investigators in the Delphi case worked closely with those who cracked the Tinsley case to see if their methods or findings could help solve the murders of Abby and Libby. Parabon Nanolabs declined an interview and state police would not say if the same test was being used in the investigation.“

Haven't heard that there is any Parabon backlog but DNA in another Indiana case (the perps in my signature case) is not expected back before November and they were arrested in April so that is 7 months, assuming they have both a perp and the perps DNA.

 

[FinePrint]

There have been several POI in this case. Has LE come out and officially eliminated any of them?

The only one I have heard them say they were clear was RL. For instance we know they wanted Etters autopsy report and DNA, that is a fact but they have never came out and said he was officially eliminated.

On the subject of DNA. They either don't have it or they have several samples from different donors and have not been able to narrow down which sample is from BG. The only reason that gives me hope that they do have BGs DNA is: 1) Just after the murders they were taking swabs from family members and so on. 2) They requested Etters DNA.... So apparently they have something to compare it to...thoughts??

 

[FinePrint]

Haven't heard that there is any Parabon backlog but DNA in another Indiana case (the perps in my signature case) is not expected back before November and they were arrested in April so that is 7 months, assuming they have both a perp and the perps DNA.

I read that too ( I know what case you are speaking of) and I was shocked that they said it would take until November. So that really makes me wonder about what is going on with the DNA process in this case in regard to making comparisons to POIs

 

[TL4S]

There have been several POI in this case. Has LE come out and officially eliminated any of them?

The only one I have heard them say they were clear was RL. For instance we know they wanted Etters autopsy report and DNA, that is a fact but they have never came out and said he was officially eliminated.

On the subject of DNA. They either don't have it or they have several samples from different donors and have not been able to narrow down which sample is from BG. The only reason that gives me hope that they do have BGs DNA is: 1) Just after the murders they were taking swabs from family members and so on. 2) They requested Etters DNA.... So apparently they have something to compare it to...thoughts??

Right about the same time as it came out about Etter's DNA request, I also saw KG had a Gedmatch (or one of those companies) logo on her twitter. I know neither of those things is concrete proof they have DNA evidence from the crime scene, but it does give me hope.

 

[HEY YOU!]

How was the crime scene itself contaminated on the first night when the girls were not found until noon the next day? May the area nearby, but the group that found them were likely told not to touch anything and to call for law enforcement before doing anything. The area where the girls were found did not have 1000 people going through it or they would have been found that night.

 

[JnRyan]

Indeed.

One thing I think I recall, and I could be wrong, but didn’t they say they gave some notice on the PC so he could be sure to attend? Something like that I thought, moo.

And not only did they announce it ahead of time, but HOW they did it. Most PC's they simply state there is going to be a PC and it will be on this day at this time. This time LE threw in a little suspense, a teaser, that there was some change or new direction or new info. And I believe they did it at the end of the week with the PC scheduled for the next week. On a Monday. This killer was obviously not working on 13 February, a Monday, when he killed Abigail and Liberty. Maybe he works on Saturday and/or Sunday and has Mondays off. He had a weekend to plan a trip and a weekend for it to wear on his mind what this change was. Even if he doesn't show at the PC, hopefully this wait would have triggered some change noticed by those around him.
I don't think it worked, but I don't fault LE for trying.

 

[susiQ]

And not only did they announce it ahead of time, but HOW they did it. Most PC's they simply state there is going to be a PC and it will be on this day at this time. This time LE threw in a little suspense, a teaser, that there was some change or new direction or new info. And I believe they did it at the end of the week with the PC scheduled for the next week. On a Monday. This killer was obviously not working on 13 February, a Monday, when he killed Abigail and Liberty. Maybe he works on Saturday and/or Sunday and has Mondays off. He had a weekend to plan a trip and a weekend for it to wear on his mind what this change was. Even if he doesn't show at the PC, hopefully this wait would have triggered some change noticed by those around him.
I don't think it worked, but I don't fault LE for trying.

Also of note, many night shift workers I know don't work Sunday nights. Their shift rotation begins again Monday night working through till early Saturday. Just a thought as to why BG may have had Monday's off. What local industries work shifts in Delphi? The meat packers? Anyone else?

 

[TL4S]

How was the crime scene itself contaminated on the first night when the girls were not found until noon the next day? May the area nearby, but the group that found them were likely told not to touch anything and to call for law enforcement before doing anything. The area where the girls were found did not have 1000 people going through it or they would have been found that night.

Something KG said about the searches almost sounded like the bodies may have been spotted from the opposite side of the creek even. That's just an interpretation on my part, so I'm not sure if people were on the side the bodies were found, or not.

 

[FinePrint]

Also of note, many night shift workers I know don't work Sunday nights. Their shift rotation begins again Monday night working through till early Saturday. Just a thought as to why BG may have had Monday's off. What local industries work shifts in Delphi? The meat packers? Anyone else?

Possibly the Subaru plant in Lafayette.

 

[FinePrint]

Something KG said about the searches almost sounded like the bodies may have been spotted from the opposite side of the creek even. That's just an interpretation on my part, so I'm not sure if people were on the side the bodies were found, or not.

Yes. I also got that impression too from what she, KG said in the last GH podcast.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Something KG said about the searches almost sounded like the bodies may have been spotted from the opposite side of the creek even. That's just an interpretation on my part, so I'm not sure if people were on the side the bodies were found, or not.

If I recall correctly, someone zoomed in on a deer and saw their bodies.

 

[Torch Carrier]

And not only did they announce it ahead of time, but HOW they did it. Most PC's they simply state there is going to be a PC and it will be on this day at this time. This time LE threw in a little suspense, a teaser, that there was some change or new direction or new info. And I believe they did it at the end of the week with the PC scheduled for the next week. On a Monday. This killer was obviously not working on 13 February, a Monday, when he killed Abigail and Liberty. Maybe he works on Saturday and/or Sunday and has Mondays off. He had a weekend to plan a trip and a weekend for it to wear on his mind what this change was. Even if he doesn't show at the PC, hopefully this wait would have triggered some change noticed by those around him.
I don't think it worked, but I don't fault LE for trying.

Don't religious workers/clergy customarily take Mondays off? I think this was so in the town I grew up in. Is this common practice still, does anyone know? The above post got me thinking. I hadn't thought about the crime and PC both being on Mondays, with the PC the Monday immediately after Easter.

 

[Charlot123]

Why do think the crime scene was contaminated?

Because the searchers and the police walked through it when the girls were found.

April’s scene of crime might have been contaminated, too, but initially, there was sperm and a sex toy, and later, Miller leaved used condoms there. A very different situation.

There have been several POI in this case. Has LE come out and officially eliminated any of them?

The only one I have heard them say they were clear was RL. For instance we know they wanted Etters autopsy report and DNA, that is a fact but they have never came out and said he was officially eliminated.

On the subject of DNA. They either don't have it or they have several samples from different donors and have not been able to narrow down which sample is from BG. The only reason that gives me hope that they do have BGs DNA is: 1) Just after the murders they were taking swabs from family members and so on. 2) They requested Etters DNA.... So apparently they have something to compare it to...thoughts??

They likely have something. In fact, I returned back to this thread in the hope. But, Parabon won't answer, predictably, and it is a lot of work anyhow.
The article I have read, about the possibility of separating DNAs in the case of contamination (it is a new technology), gives certain hope.

 

[Torch Carrier]

How was the crime scene itself contaminated on the first night when the girls were not found until noon the next day? May the area nearby, but the group that found them were likely told not to touch anything and to call for law enforcement before doing anything. The area where the girls were found did not have 1000 people going through it or they would have been found that night.

Maybe scene not contaminated but compromised?

 

[Charlot123]

Yup. BTK started with a quadruple, was sloppy as hell, and still got away with it.

He took a tremendous risk, and encountered a situation that put him in great jeopardy.

I definitely think this guy is a budding serial killer, and will remain dangerous until he is caught.

At this point, I think this case will be solved when he attempts or is successful in committing another violent crime.

Interesting, if one looks at the article about BTK in Wiki, there are the names of his planned victims... One stands out, an old lady. Coincidence? Or one needs to ask BTK how he chose victims?