Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #114

[Boxer]

The newscaster, a woman, said she saw the Patty's leaving with BP crying. Maybe they just stepped out of the building for a few minutes for some air and privacy (all media was inside set up for PC) or into another more private area and then came back?

That sound like it fits the two stories that came out. Who can blame them, they have been canvassing non stop for people to ID the old sketch.

 

[Elsa Johanssen]

Could those sketches be the murderer and the person he contacted to pick him up? (who was younger)

 

[Boxer]

There is a pic of Libby's mum looking very upset IIRC.

MOO I think they were upset. I think they stayed though. Another poster suggested they went outside for a bit, that sounds exactly right.

 

[Nerissa]

I have been researching this case for a while and I have to say, (for the first time) my perception has completely changed for reasons I am probably not allowed to say here. LE, IMO, are very knowledgeable and much smarter than what we may think (which is a complete 180 from what I thought months ago). Internally, it may be quite chaotic since there is a possibility there is some COI since local cops tend to know local people close to the case (in any small town with a murder case!). I believe it is one reason LE is so tight-lipped even among their own.

In my mind, a majority of people think it's one person and who feel it's very obvious. Another group is vehemently protective of this person and willing to do anything to help cover tracks, which is what is (IMO) causing the police so much headache and a virtual block. Police, on top of everything else, have had to sift through false (and very intentional) rumor (i.e. 2 men who wore ______!) that has potentially obstructed the case.

There is mention by Carter of The Shack at the PC - which I do not believe is a coincidence. I believe police think that it was watched at church with family and wanted to clearly signal LE is watching him. I also have heard that there is a structure of some sort (cabin/shack) in the woods near the bridge, where youth groups meet, that police may be interested in. I'm not sure how it ties into all of this but wanted to post in case anyone knows anything about this.

Finally, you have a DA that stepped down 1 year early ("for personal and professional reasons") and a cop that looks like he saw a ghost before a press conference. It is in these scenarios where police are often threatened by the guilty---- so I think it's something to keep in mind. It is something i think is 99% probable.

I believe this case will be solved as soon as they release that piece of information that they know will shake the community. The information has to get out so that the public can offer information that is specific enough that they can use to finally put this person behind bars.

Yes, this is where I'm at: or I should say what I hope, as a relative term, of what's up with this case

 

[Elsa Johanssen]

Yes, this is where I'm at: or I should say what I hope, as a relative term, of what's up with this case

Yes, relative term - well said

 

[beandawgs]

They know who the guy is - and supposedly have DNA from the crime scene so why haven’t they matched this guys DNA yet ?

 

[Mosit]

You can't just take somebody's dna and he is clearly being very clever about it all

 

[SilentRogue]

You can't just take somebody's dna and he is clearly being very clever about it all

You can get a persons DNA by one of three ways:

1) Voluntarily;

2) Abandoned property;

3) With a warrant.

If they really wanted it, they'd have it.

 

[Cryptic]

That is a good idea, also there is speculation as to his jacket being button snap style, which is typically worn by Amish in that area.

Mennonites, Amish, Ultra Orthodox Jews have cases where an individuals only outwardly follows the religion and associated social customs. Nearly always, there is no bad intent.

Dropping out go Orthodox Judaism, Amish or Mennonite religions can often mean severing family ties, friendships, business connections etc. Thus, some people chose to "go through the motions" out of pragmatism.

If the victims were targeted and if the perpetrator is a Mennonite (German Baptist?), my guess is that such a perpetrator would be of two general types:
- Somebody on the fringes of the community and "going through the motions.
- A fully participating member.

Fully participating members with criminal inclination would have little to limited contact with non Mennonites and would thus be more likely to victimize another Mennonite.

Maybe do a screening of local Mennonites known to stray? For example, known to change out of obviously distinctive clothing, associates frequently with non Mennonites, owns technology items normally verboten in more conservative congregations, uses cars casually ( conservative congregations may limit car use), or perhaps say, maintains a P.O. box to receive hmm..... "Un Mennonite" material?

Such a screening would probably just uncover a handful of ordinary men (and maybe an ordinary girl) who just don't want to "Mennonite 24/7". But one never knows.... .

 

[sleuther0192837465]

It’s been 6 months since the PC with the “new” sketch being put out there. I am still in shock over that. The girls’ families, etc. spent so much time, effort & money putting out flyers with the “wrong” sketch on them...those flyers could still be floating around out there which means people have been looking for the wrong suspect all this time (not to mention those billboards). This is beyond frustrating to me, so I can not imagine how the families feel.
SOMETHING made LE go in this direction (thinking alibis). I sure would like to know what that something was, exactly. If they even had someone in mind, they could do what they did in the EAR/ONS/GSK case...they have not so that tells me they either do not have a suspect or they don’t have proper DNA. I think it’s the latter. MOO

 

[Mike Britton]

2) Abandoned property;

Wouldn't using abandoned property to acquire DNA render it inadmissible in court? If not, the various POIs around here better watch their trash.

 

[SilentRogue]

Wouldn't using abandoned property to acquire DNA render it inadmissible in court? If not, the various POIs around here better watch their trash.

Absolutely not.

Its abandoned DNA.

Look up the grim sleeper, whose DNA they confirmed with a used cup/can outside his house.

Edit: I verified, and they trailed him to a pizza party where an officer posing as a bus boy nabbed various items, including napkins, pizza crust, cups, and forks to confirm the familial match. All trash, all abandoned property.

More recently, look up the East Area rapist/Original Night Stalker (Joseph James DeAngelo) - his DNA match was confirmed after they swabbed his door handle when he went into a Hobby Lobby. They then verified this match with a second sample retrieved via his garbage.

John Nicholas Athan is also an interesting case. The police suspected him in a homicide. They sent him a letter purported to be from a law firm, with a self-return envelope sealed by saliva. When he returned the envelope, sealed with his saliva, they used it to convict it in a murder.

This has been a legal issue for some time, with many legal scholars arguing abandoned DNA needs to be protected, but for the most part it is entirely legal for anyone to take your garbage and do with it as they see fit - including testing it for DNA and using it against you.

 

[taximama24]

Wouldn't using abandoned property to acquire DNA render it inadmissible in court? If not, the various POIs around here better watch their trash.

I believe finding a DNA match this way would allow for probable cause for a search warrant, which can include a more properly administered DNA test (cheek swab) that would be admissible in court. This is why I am not convinced LE has DNA for this crime (perhaps a tainted or partial sample) and why they are so adamantly appealing to the public for that "one tip" they need to bring this case to justice. I don't think the "one tip' is referring to a name, I think they are looking for something to doubt an alibi, or something that would hold up in court to isolate the suspect from a related pair, etc.

 

[JnRyan]

To me, ISP Carter seemed like a deer in the headlights when he was asked that. He wasn't expecting that question after answering so many about the Flora case at a Flora case PC. If he'd said no comment or I can't talk about an on-going investigation it could have seemed like a big red flag to the press.

He was asked a direct question and he choose his words. Instead of just saying something like we investigated the families early on and moved on, he choose to say the "vast majority" have been cleared, leaving it hanging there.

People can digest those words differently. I think ISP Carter choosing to even put that language out there has some value in the investigation. AJMO

Yeah, that's the long version of what I suspect he intended.

 

[Mike Britton]

I don't think the "one tip' is referring to a name

Agreed, it does sound very much like they've identified a primary suspect. Perhaps wishful thinking.

 

[SilentRogue]

Agreed, it does sound very much like they've identified a primary suspect. Perhaps wishful thinking.

If law enforcement had identified one person, they'd be looking for that one tip, or one piece of evidence from that suspect, his family, friends, coworkers, associates, acquaintances. They'd be at his school, his job, his last job, the store(s) he frequents, his mechanic, restaurants. They'd be getting warrants for employment records, vehicle data, cell phone data, etc... for that suspect.

They wouldn't be casting a wide net in front of a global audience. As much as people invest in the idea that they have a "primary" suspect, I assure you as of the 4/22/19 press conference, there was no primary suspect.

Think about it, do they need or want to investigate tips from the public at large (think about the sheer volume of garbage they'd have to sort through) when they could simply focus all efforts on one man and every detail of his life generally and more specifically on 2/13/17?

 

[Aydrianna523]

It’s been 6 months since the PC with the “new” sketch being put out there. I am still in shock over that. The girls’ families, etc. spent so much time, effort & money putting out flyers with the “wrong” sketch on them...those flyers could still be floating around out there which means people have been looking for the wrong suspect all this time (not to mention those billboards). This is beyond frustrating to me, so I can not imagine how the families feel.
SOMETHING made LE go in this direction (thinking alibis). I sure would like to know what that something was, exactly. If they even had someone in mind, they could do what they did in the EAR/ONS/GSK case...they have not so that tells me they either do not have a suspect or they don’t have proper DNA. I think it’s the latter. MOO

I remember Ofc Holeman using the words, "very little evidence" so I'm thinking that's it. An outdoor's crime scene would be much harder to process, as well. And with first responders on the scene, etc.

 

[Aydrianna523]

I am shocked law enforcement thinks he's hiding in plain sight, and in the area. If so, you'd think they could narrow it down...

 

[Mike Britton]

...do they need or want to investigate tips from the public at large (think about the sheer volume of garbage they'd have to sort through) when they could simply focus all efforts on one man and every detail of his life generally and more specifically on 2/13/17?

Feels like the man and his life will be discovered after the interrogation and arrest of the POI whose DNA matches their partial sample. The science is so razor sharp, traditional gumshoe techniques may not apply anymore.

 

[SilentRogue]

I am shocked law enforcement thinks he's hiding in plain sight, and in the area. If so, you'd think they could narrow it down...

To be clear, almost all killers are living in plain site. There are very few Ted Kaczynski's in the world.

The fact that they believe he is local just speaks to how little evidence they have. That is a square one offender profile characteristic.