Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #118

[margarita25]

It’s time for a new thread, unfortunately.

ETA:
Dear Mods, Can you please bring over the new thread index I created for threads 1-117 to the new thread? I’m reposting it in a separate post below so it’s easier to bring over (as opposed to the one 200 posts back). Thank you very much in advance.

 

[margarita25]

Index of all discussion threads to date, 1-117.

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[Beth11311]

Here’s where I get stuck - why hasn’t there been another crime since that has been found to be similar or related to A&L. Based on what we know about offenders, it is incredibly unlikely that this was BG’s first crime. He likely has been arrested for peeping Tom or similar violations, domestic violence, etc. You don’t fly under the radar and then up and brutally murder two girls randomly. You also generally do not kill like this and then melt back into society never to harm again - it is very likely that if he hasn’t committed a crime since that he will. Cooling off periods for years at a time are very rare (think BTK). So my guesses are either BG is dead, has offended again but the crime has not been tied back to our A&L, or is feeding his urges with less risky criminal offenses and biding his time. Either that or he has superhuman control of his urges...unlikely. I expect that he is an inadequate personality type, who likely feels emasculated and may have a domineering mother or mother figure. He can’t control women his own age so he went after children, the only way he was able to feel powerful/superior. While this seems to be a crime of opportunity, MOO I don’t think that he would have gone after a grown woman. I think he was hunting kids that day. Or maybe not. Damnit where are you BG.

 

[margarita25]

Here’s where I get stuck - why hasn’t there been another crime since that has been found to be similar or related to A&L. Based on what we know about offenders, it is incredibly unlikely that this was BG’s first crime. He likely has been arrested for peeping Tom or similar violations, domestic violence, etc. You don’t fly under the radar and then up and brutally murder two girls randomly. You also generally do not kill like this and then melt back into society never to harm again - it is very likely that if he hasn’t committed a crime since that he will. Cooling off periods for years at a time are very rare (think BTK). So my guesses are either BG is dead, has offended again but the crime has not been tied back to our A&L, or is feeding his urges with less risky criminal offenses and biding his time. Either that or he has superhuman control of his urges...unlikely. I expect that he is an inadequate personality type, who likely feels emasculated and may have a domineering mother or mother figure. He can’t control women his own age so he went after children, the only way he was able to feel powerful/superior. While this seems to be a crime of opportunity, MOO I don’t think that he would have gone after a grown woman. I think he was hunting kids that day. Or maybe not. Damnit where are you BG.

Good post.

My best guess at this time is that he has changed MOs, or reverting to a previous one, or who knows evolving into a new one as we speak. If I had to take a guess who his other victims are since Delphi, I would say sex workers, perhaps in larger areas like Chicago or Indianapolis. Again, just some thoughts, if I had to guess, moo.

 

[JnRyan]

Current military service members have their DNA recorded. I don’t know the laws about running criminal evidence against it though.

We’ve discussed in depth how there are multiple databases of DNA that can’t legally be used in criminal investigations. At least not yet.

If any LE agency is relying on military medical/dental records to solve a crime, they might as well just give up now. As a 17-year spouse, my medical records have been “lost” multiple times. My 14 year old is still listed as ‘Baby Girl Lastname’ in DEERS despite taking her birth certificate in at several posts. There is a service member with my exact full name and occasionally her records are pulled for me. And sometimes the provider wants to argue with me about a surgery and medication I never had. My husband has had proof of certain vaccines but because it wasn’t in the computer he was told ‘oh well, just get another one’. I hope Delphi has better options than DoD records!

After asking a military medical person, the DNA database was originally off limits outside DoD. They said this changed around the time of GW Bush's first term when Congress added wording to an annual DoD authorization bill. As a result there is SOME access to the military DNA. The service secretary (e.g., SECNAV), MAY collect DNA from a service member who has been CONVICTED of certain military crimes and submit them to CODIS. The database may also be subject to a court order, but only for a specific member. For the time being it doesn't appear that the military DNA database is open to genealogy searches.

As far as the DNA collected for identification of service related deaths I don't believe it is in DEERS. Rather I believe it is a separate database. Armed Forces Medical Examiners System - Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory (AFMES-AFDIL).

 

[JnRyan]

Good post.

My best guess at this time is that he has changed MOs, or reverting to a previous one. If I had to take a guess who his other victims are since Delphi, I would say sex workers, perhaps in larger areas like Chicago or Indianapolis. Again, just some thoughts, if I had to guess, moo.

That is what I'm wondering about. I don't see this as a one time offender. He may have not murdered before, but he possibly committed some other sexual offense.

 

[Beth11311]

That is what I'm wondering about. I don't see this as a one time offender. He may have not murdered before, but he possibly committed some other sexual offense.

Very likely that he has committed sexual offenses. Even if there is no sign of sexual assault, many murders of this type are still sexual in nature. There is a release etc associated.

 

[Beth11311]

Good post.

My best guess at this time is that he has changed MOs, or reverting to a previous one, or who knows evolving into a new one as we speak. If I had to take a guess who his other victims are since Delphi, I would say sex workers, perhaps in larger areas like Chicago or Indianapolis. Again, just some thoughts, if I had to guess, moo.

Thanks M You think he wised up and started targeting less-likely-to-be-missed populations?

 

[margarita25]

That is what I'm wondering about. I don't see this as a one time offender. He may have not murdered before, but he possibly committed some other sexual offense.

This is where the “age thing” is such an important factor, imo, because it relates directly to the perp’s potential level of experience, as well as number of his prior offenses (assaults, etc.) and even potential “body count”. The more time he has had on this earth, the likely the greater the number of assaults and/or body count.

If he’s ever had a significant other, (again, how old is he?), I suggest it’s very possible he has a record of DV.

 

[margarita25]

Thanks M You think he wised up and started targeting less-likely-to-be-missed populations?

Yes.

He is able to fulfill his need to kill, and/or assault, and get lost in the needle of haystacks of cases relating to prostitute murders...harder for LE to track, etc., moo.

These victims are easier prey for him, so it wouldn’t fulfill his desire of “hunting”, necessarily.

Idk.

ETA: A couple quick links for reference and example to paint a general idea of the “haystacks” out there - perhaps he participates in crimes similar to some here / they are brutal crimes:

Is There A Serial Killer On The Loose In Chicago? Dozens Of Similar Cases Unsolved

75 women have been strangled or smothered in Chicago since 2001. Most of their killers got away.

 

[Beth11311]

Another thing I wonder about: we know that BG did something or behaved in a way that spooked the girls enough to start recording him. I’d love to know if that’s because he’s so socially inept and mentally frayed that he can’t behave “normally” in public, or if that’s because he had them in his sights already and knew it. I tend to lean towards the fact that he already knew he had them and behaved in some manner that he wouldn’t normally, because otherwise I really do imagine he would have been caught by now especially if he was a local. He displays a mix or organized/disorganized behaviors. Someone that nuts would have a hard time blending back in, IMO.

 

[Ozoner]

That is what I'm wondering about. I don't see this as a one time offender. He may have not murdered before, but he possibly committed some other sexual offense.

Maybe one strategy that LE is using is that of looking for sexual offenses in the community that were reported but did not result in charges. Most rapes go unreported; hopefully LE is surreptitiously gathering information on sexual assaults or instances of voyeurism or stalking that were never reported to LE.

 

[Ozoner]

Yes.

He is able to fulfill his need to kill, and/or assault, and get lost in the needle of haystacks of cases relating to prostitute murders...harder for LE to track, etc., moo. These victims are easier prey for him, so it wouldn’t fulfill his challenge of hunting, necessarily.

Idk.

ETA: A couple quick links for reference and example to paint a general idea of the “haystacks” out there - perhaps he participates in crimes similar to some here / they are quite brutal:

Is There A Serial Killer On The Loose In Chicago? Dozens Of Similar Cases Unsolved

75 women have been strangled or smothered in Chicago since 2001. Most of their killers got away.

Who knows how many undetected serial killers are out there. Many of us feel certain that there's a serial killer operating in the Flint, Michigan, area. (About a dozen women have disappeared in the past ten years or so; most have not been found.)

 

[sunshineray]

Well, you're free to try to read between the lines, so to speak, but Carter never referred to any kind of deliberate deception. All of Carter's PC's seem fraught with emotion.
-
If LE had discovered some kind of deliberate deception in the investigation, that would have given them a pretty good bead on who BG is, and they still don't seem to know. They've stated that they have enough evidence to convict if they find BG, so it's reasonable to conclude that they still don't know who he is.


I believe they switched to focusing on younger perps after abandoning the old sketch.

IMO Carter did address it with no in between. He stated what the killer thought and that LE most likely heard what he had to say in person. Carter said, "Directly to the killer who may be in this room, we believe you are hiding in plain sight. For more than two years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but we have. We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you," he said."

As far as LE having enough evidence to convict, that might be only if they can place the killer at the scene or even just the area on the afternoon of the murders. That might be the problem they can't overcome...yet. AJMO

 

[margarita25]

Who knows how many undetected serial killers are out there. Many of us feel certain that there's a serial killer operating in the Flint, Michigan, area. (About a dozen women have disappeared in the past ten years or so; most have not been found.)

Precisely one of my points. Just like with the Texas Killing Fields and other murders near there, LE has mentioned the possibility of multiple killers, etc...

Not sure if you ever got to see the show on A&E that WS was a part of?

A&E The Killing Season Episodes 1 and 2

I’m not sure which episode it was, but I recall a US map, and discussion of how many serial killers are actively operating at any given time in the US. This episode was focusing on truckers, iirc.

Yeah I don’t know. I could be WAY OFF on everything, who knows.

It sure will be interesting to see how this all pans out when he is arrested, hopefully soon.

 

[Beth11311]

Yes.

He is able to fulfill his need to kill, and/or assault, and get lost in the needle of haystacks of cases relating to prostitute murders...harder for LE to track, etc., moo. These victims are easier prey for him, so it wouldn’t fulfill his desire of hunting, necessarily.

Idk.

ETA: A couple quick links for reference and example to paint a general idea of the “haystacks” out there - perhaps he participates in crimes similar to some here / they are brutal crimes:

Is There A Serial Killer On The Loose In Chicago? Dozens Of Similar Cases Unsolved

75 women have been strangled or smothered in Chicago since 2001. Most of their killers got away.

Yes! Was reading about this in MAP earlier.

 

[Boxer]

I think that it is a young killer who does not in any DNA in a data base criminal or military. The crime is athletic, focused, fast and reckless. The victims were young. Even if the police scoured social media, Libby had wiped her phone the week before so there is no guarantee they know who she had been in contact with. As for motive, I do think it had to do with an obsession, but perhaps not directly with the girls.

 

[margarita25]

Who knows how many undetected serial killers are out there. Many of us feel certain that there's a serial killer operating in the Flint, Michigan, area. (About a dozen women have disappeared in the past ten years or so; most have not been found.)

Is there a thread here for that? Tia.

Yes! Was reading about this in MAP earlier.

Well, in that case, @Beth11311, , (good to see you btw, can you believe we are still here with no arrest?), you need to take a look at this important new thread:

MAP sues FBI (and others) for failure to report thousands of homicides

 

[margarita25]

Delete

 

[Trebor5591]

Both were open casket @ the high school, and a lot of rumours swirled about their clothing. It was heavily discussed at the time.

My question was, did the girls remains at the viewing evidence any signs of trauma? Do you recall if anything was said or noted at the time? I have spent the past 2 hours reviewing the posts right after the Feb. 18 viewing/memorial at the High School, and did not see any report from anyone who was at the memorial service. Maybe the heavy discussion came a few days later? This case has so many posts--its nearly impossible to find what you want!