Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[JnRyan]

He does seem overly simplistic in his approach but luckily Tobe Leazenby isn't in charge of how the investigation is or has been run. He was apparently in charge of making the decision to not continue searching overnight, but the ISP, specifically Detective Jerry Holeman, have the lead role in investigating this case and were introduced as such way back at the very first press conference. From comments in the Down the Hill podcast, it seems that as soon as the girls were found, this decision was made. We don't hear a ton from Detective Holeman but he's been working the case as case manager from the very first day. So the answer to "how long did the Carroll County Sheriff Department have control of the crime scene?" Is: not very much time if any at all.

This article has some info about Holeman and his opinions of the investigation in the early stages.
Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence

I've always thought Holeman was the lead, but I've since read that this case belongs to Carroll County Sheriff's Dept even though ISP and Delphi PD have investigators working on it with some assistance from the FBI. I'll see if I can find the reference.

 

[kkdj]

I found it. Leazenby states the attack is not on the recording in this interview with James Renner.

Thank you. I don't think I had ever seen this before.
And it's interesting too, isn't it?

 

[rosesfromangels]

I found it. Leazenby states the attack is not on the recording in this interview with James Renner.

I would have sworn that LE previously said it was, and was “the stuff nightmares are made of”.
Did I dream that up?
It’s certainly possible given the length this case has been going on. Our minds start to fill in the blanks, and often incorrectly.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MistyWaters]

I would have sworn that LE previously said it was, and was “the stuff nightmares are made of”.
Did I dream that up?
It’s certainly possible given the length this case has been going on. Our minds start to fill in the blanks, and often incorrectly.

Amateur opinion and speculation

My memory has it a reporter made that comment although I noticed it was often attributed to LE. Regardless I think it really does aptly describe a scenario that indeed is a parent or grandparents worst nightmare - two active teens just out for an innocent walk on a trail during a warm and sunny afternoon....missing, found murdered. It doesn’t get much worse than that.

 

[Yemelyan]

I've always thought Holeman was the lead, but I've since read that this case belongs to Carroll County Sheriff's Dept even though ISP and Delphi PD have investigators working on it with some assistance from the FBI. I'll see if I can find the reference.

As of February 14, 2020 the ISP were
the lead investigative agency and if something has changed since that time, I haven't seen it. Here is an article from the Indy Star on the third anniversary of the girls' deaths where Sgt. Kim Riley, who is the information officer for the ISP, discussed who works on the case:

Delphi murders: After 3 years with no arrests, police say case isn't cold

From the article: Three years later, there are two state troopers, two Carroll County sheriff's deputies, a Delphi city police officer, and someone from the prosecutor's office working regularly on the case. And the FBI "still assists us," Riley said.

As far as I know, the two Carroll County deputies who are assisting are Detectives Kevin Hammond and Tony Liggett. I'm sure Tobe Leazenby is briefed on the case, but like Superintendent Carter, he's not out there knocking on doors and checking alibis IMO. That's not his job.

 

[somequestions]

I would have sworn that LE previously said it was, and was “the stuff nightmares are made of”.
Did I dream that up?
It’s certainly possible given the length this case has been going on. Our minds start to fill in the blanks, and often incorrectly.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I do not think you dreamed that up. I think some LE did say it was "the stuff nightmares are made of" even if the Sheriff said the attack was not on the audio. You are at least basing your ideas on a statement that, if found, can be referenced as fact.

The two teenage girls aged 17 and 18 that went missing on Utah Lake have not been found yet. I see two go missing and immediately think of this case and the Evansdale, Iowa case. Then I realize that I am just being overly suspicious about things. It happens to everyone, trying to make links where there really are none.

 

[CCJD]

I would have sworn that LE previously said it was, and was “the stuff nightmares are made of”.
Did I dream that up?
It’s certainly possible given the length this case has been going on. Our minds start to fill in the blanks, and often incorrectly.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I got the link to this from Thread # 18, post # 117
From Inside Edition: A source familiar with the investigation described the full recording as "the stuff of nightmares."
BBM
Police Release Sketch of Suspect, 5 Months After Murder of Indiana Teens

 

[MistyWaters]

I got the link to this from Thread # 18, post # 117
From Inside Edition: A source familiar with the investigation described the full recording as "the stuff of nightmares."
BBM
Police Release Sketch of Suspect, 5 Months After Murder of Indiana Teens

I can’t imagine a police officer would ever say something that thoughtless, knowing family members already were stricken with shock and grief by the discovery of the bodies.

 

[CCJD]

I can’t imagine a police officer would ever say something that thoughtless, knowing family members already were stricken with shock and grief by the discovery of the bodies.

Unnamed sources always send my hinky meter into overdrive.

 

[Davemac1]

.

 

[Davemac1]

Is it common for ISP to not state the cause of death in these kind of cases?

I'm trying to understand why they are holding this back?
Is it to protect the families? I can understand that but would have thought they pretty much know what went on, harrowing though it is?

I think I've also read that they are holding it back to stop the cranks and nutjobs offering false confessions. But surely that's cleaned up with DNA?, which leads me on to think the DNA case they have is very thin. Was the scene too heavily contaminated during the search?

Another theory I had is the 'signature' has the markings of a known serial killer that may have killed many more before this crime.
I say 'known', by that I mean by the FBI and LE and but not the general public. They may be trying to keep a lid on it to prevent national fears and paranoia.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

I do not think you dreamed that up. I think some LE did say it was "the stuff nightmares are made of" even if the Sheriff said the attack was not on the audio. You are at least basing your ideas on a statement that, if found, can be referenced as fact.

The two teenage girls aged 17 and 18 that went missing on Utah Lake have not been found yet. I see two go missing and immediately think of this case and the Evansdale, Iowa case. Then I realize that I am just being overly suspicious about things. It happens to everyone, trying to make links where there really are none.

I did not hear about the 2 girls in Utah! When did that happen and what are their names? Do you have a news link? Thank you!

 

[MistyWaters]

Unnamed sources always send my hinky meter into overdrive.

Mine too.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Utah lake missing teens
Utah teenagers swept away while tubing after intense winds, families hold out hope as search ongoing
This doesn’t appear to have any connection to Abby /Libby, but rather an act of nature. Prayers for a miracle.

 

[stattlich1]

I must say, and I apologize up front, because my thoughts on this entire case are at times born out of being totally baffled.

I mean seriously, in possession of the FBI, and numerous other professional LE services, not to mention likely an entire myriad of other individuals, is

1. video of what we are told is a prime suspect, BG
2. numerous still photos from said video
3. voice recordings of what we are told is a prime suspect, BG
4. crime scene, bodies of the victims, and all associated evidence

and yet, they have not brought charges.

Am I totally wrong in thinking they know who the killer is? Probably. With the aforementioned facts, am I to conclude they have NO IDEA who killed these girls? Probably closer to the truth.

Talk me out of this websleuthers. Talk me out of the idea that the FBI, in conjunction with all other agencies, professionals, analysts, detectives, etc. who have video, still photos, voice recordings, bodies, and all related evidence from the scene, and can't find the killer, that they have no idea who it is.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I must say, and I apologize up front, because my thoughts on this entire case are at times born out of being totally baffled.

I mean seriously, in possession of the FBI, and numerous other professional LE services, not to mention likely an entire myriad of other individuals, is

1. video of what we are told is a prime suspect, BG
2. numerous still photos from said video
3. voice recordings of what we are told is a prime suspect, BG
4. crime scene, bodies of the victims, and all associated evidence

and yet, they have not brought charges.

Am I totally wrong in thinking they know who the killer is? Probably. With the aforementioned facts, am I to conclude they have NO IDEA who killed these girls? Probably closer to the truth.

Talk me out of this websleuthers. Talk me out of the idea that the FBI, in conjunction with all other agencies, professionals, analysts, detectives, etc. who have video, still photos, voice recordings, bodies, and all related evidence from the scene, and can't find the killer, that they have no idea who it is.

I‘m sure with all the talented agencies involved that they have a strong profile. I’m guessing no DNA hit in CODIS, so now they have to go through barrels of red tape to get familial DNA testing. It’s unbelievable the process they have to go through. Frankly, with all the hoops and red tape, they are right on schedule. So much red tape.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[carbuff]

I do not think you dreamed that up. I think some LE did say it was "the stuff nightmares are made of" even if the Sheriff said the attack was not on the audio. You are at least basing your ideas on a statement that, if found, can be referenced as fact.

The two teenage girls aged 17 and 18 that went missing on Utah Lake have not been found yet. I see two go missing and immediately think of this case and the Evansdale, Iowa case. Then I realize that I am just being overly suspicious about things. It happens to everyone, trying to make links where there really are none.

There are some rather strong resemblances to Lizzy and Lyric in Iowa, aren't there? But that would be too too weird. I agree, the human mind wants to make connections, to make the world make sense. But sometimes there is no sense to be found.

 

[mom2chloe]

It is my opinion and I agree that the girls crossed the creek that day.

If he took them in a vehicle, why would he bother to bring them back? He could have left them anywhere.

I don’t think he could come back and park under the bridge because by then people were searching that area and under the bridge in case they had fallen off.

So if he came from the other direction, he would have to park at the cemetery or near RL's land and walked down to the crime scene. He would take a big chance of being seen by the cemetery but could he have snuck through RL's property in the dark? I don’t think he could make two trips and carry the girls.

Didn’t RL say the LE had set up their command post at the cemetery?

To me it is like robbing a store and going back for the one thing you still wanted and walking right into the midst of the LE. But he still may have returned for the search because he knew exactly where the girls were.

RL left his property that day to drive to the dump. Did he encounter a visitor that day? One of his son’s or grandson’s friends who were familiar with the property and knew he would be gone for a certain timeframe? I wish we knew if LE considered or even questioned any of those friends. Maybe even someone with an axe to grind but more likely just an opportunist.
Also we have no way of knowing whether the girls were murdered there or somewhere close by nor do we know if they were taken and returned since the bodies weren’t found until the previous day. i cannot wrap my head and heart around someone randomly abducting and or murdering two girls without knowledge of the terrain and the fact that the property they were found on belongs to someone with an alibi who served time for a ridiculously stupid reason. I wonder if someone meant to set up RL or took advantage of his absence that day to suit their needs.

 

[Spartygirl]

I was active in this thread for a period, quite some time ago. I come around to read from time to time, otherwise don't post often.

A couple thoughts I had months ago, and still do. These are all my opinion.

Mistakes were surely made in the early hours, and the ensuing night, in terms of the scene, which I believe was badly contaminated by the number of searchers traipsing about.

The fact that there is a video of a guy on the bridge, and NOBODY seems to know who it is, remains for me, quite a disturbing thought. I think the video is clear enough, coupled with the voice recordings, that an ID could be made by professionals in the field IF this person on the bridge was known within the local community. I also believe BG IS known by LE investigating the case, and also known within the local community.

I think there were two people involved in the murders. I believe the girls were directed and corralled by perp 1, BG, and I believe a second perp was lying in wait. I think LE has DNA from both, but can not prove which perp did the killing. I think LE has a strong belief which of the two actually murdered these girls, but simply does not have the evidence to nail him. It is the lack of definitive evidence to nail the one perp, the actual killer, that is causing the delay in the case.

MOO

I agree with pretty much everything you posted.
Except, I am on the fence about 2 people involved.
Sometimes I think there were 2 and other times I think just 1.
I do believe LE knows but cannot get the evidence to arrest him/them.
I don't think there is much DNA if any and what there is has been contaminated by all the people out there searching.
LE messed up by letting everyone and their brother around the crime scene, so no valuable proof.
Again, as you say, if there are 2 perps, they cant figure out which one actually killed Libby and Abbey
Locals suspect /know but again, no proof as too many people out there searching and cross contamination of DNA.
LE know but cannot prove BG was there at that time and on that day.
This last reason being my main reason it is not solved even with Libbys video and voice recording.
I mean, come on, Libby gave us and LE VIDEO OF THE PERP, VOICE OF THE PERP...and here we are 3 yrs later and NO arrest.

 

[Spartygirl]

were there any posts or indications from witnesses of this person leaving that he had scratches on his face or was harmed in any way? wondering how he was able to subdue 2 girls unless he knew them to begin with, other than the fact you think there were 2 POI not just 1

If one person, all he would have to do is show the girls a gun.
That is how he would subdue 2 young girls.