Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[Spartygirl]

I have wondered the same about the understructure of the bridge. In photos and videos it looks like another level.

Not sure about the South End where the girls ended up but I believe if they went straight off the bridge then they are on private property.
the DTH would be veering off to the side and then down a hill towards the side road.
The North side under bridge is way down and it is a whole other level.

 

[Sillybilly]

This post lands at random.

Please stop speculating that these girls did or said anything that triggered what happened to them. There is no MSM of information from LE to indicate anything of that nature and such speculation is not victim friendly.

 

[Charlot123]

I've considered this possibility, 'down the hill' leads to the driveway, and if a car was there, they'd be out of there in less than a minute. But then there would be the issue of how did they get the girls bodies, or the girls themselves prior to the murder, to the site where they were found?

Even the thought of such a possible scenario is evidence that we know so little. LE knows if the girls actually crossed that creek that day, and I strongly suspect that they did. I doubt the girls left that area in a car that day.

MOO

I just feel the timing is off. It seems that it was planned, either with these girls, or with any random victims. It appears that the perp was angry, but also, sadistic, and enjoyed the process.

So kill in 15 minutes, and take a shortcut via the cemetery, does not seem right to me. The story just feels different.

Could they be taken somewhere, and then back via the creek at a different place, perhaps downstream from Dephi? At the place where people were not searching, in a boat, tied up? Then be marched back to “that” place and killed?

At any point in time, their complacency could be assured because there were two of them “do what we say, or we shall kill your friend”.

 

[Spartygirl]

I don’t think anything has been suggested that makes me believe there were two people involved. As far as LE and the decision to not release any further audio, I think if there was anything to suggest two perps or a minor, they would have said so immediately.

People would have disregarded possible suspects because they were with a minor or another person that day. They would have lost potential tips, especially if it was a minor, and been able to drastically narrow the number of people they had to investigate based on those tips, if they knew suspect was with a minor or another person. It wouldn’t make sense at all imo.

The only reason I half think 2 people involve is because of this presser

"The two contrasting sketches led some to wonder if there was more than one person involved in the killings.

“We’re not sure about that,” Leazenby said Thursday when asked whether two people were involved in the crime
so LE said they aren't even sure about that.
For 3 yrs I only thought there was ONE but after that, I have to be open minded to think, Hmm maybe there were 2.
Honestly, I don't know ..one day I think only one and the next day, I think there were 2.
'I'm absolutely hopeful.' On anniversary of Delphi killings, community has faith next tip leads to justice

 

[Spartygirl]

I don't know that he came to the trails "prepared to kill", although he obviously wasn't adverse to it either. I think he has a short fuse, and something the girls did or said - maybe something as simple as dismissing him or not giving him the time of day when he tried to talk to them - just sent him over the edge. Whether his intent when he told them to go down the hill was to kill them or if it just got out of hand, it's hard to say, but at that point I'd guess that he was already entertaining the idea, even if only as a possibility.

I am going to go even farther than you and @pearl and say this was more targeted.
JMO only

 

[Spartygirl]

Do we know if there was a sexual assault of the girls? Any confirmation either way?

NONE. There has not been any confirmation by LE or family of any SA

 

[Alphafuzz]

I’m sure this has been stated before, but I think the change in course came from DNA evidence. Things like age, hair color and eye color “not blue” seem to be things that could be determined by advanced DNA technology. I think they got this feedback from the lab and then looked back at the old sketch (and realized their first sketch did not match). This is why I believe the change in sketches. It also possibly points to degraded dna or tips their hand in terms of dna and I think this is why they have never clearly explained why the change of sketches.

MOO

I agree. I had said earlier that they may have done phenotyping and have an accurate image that they are keeping under wraps. When I saw the sketch they are focusing on now it seemed purposefully lacking in detail. Couple that with the carefully crafted statement from the same presser and it might indicate they know but lack enough evidence to charge and convict.

Jmo

 

[Spartygirl]

I trust Leazenby. He is not going to be either promoted or demoted because of this case. There is a certain job security in his position.

Now, if any police officer involved in investigation gets too high or too low, this will be interesting. So far, I saw only one major promotion. And Ives left, returned and left again.

And that ONE promotion is very interesting. JMO

 

[Spartygirl]

I’m sure this has been stated before, but I think the change in course came from DNA evidence. Things like age, hair color and eye color “not blue” seem to be things that could be determined by advanced DNA technology. I think they got this feedback from the lab and then looked back at the old sketch (and realized their first sketch did not match). This is why I believe the change in sketches. It also possibly points to degraded dna or tips their hand in terms of dna and I think this is why they have never clearly explained why the change of sketches.

MOO

Hello fellow Michigander !!
I agree that I think the 2nd sketch could have come from DNA technology put together and they realized 1st sketch was a bit off.

 

[JDough]

Here's where I get into trouble for not researching before I post. There is a law in effect, I don't know if it's federal or state, or if it's in effect in Indiana if it is state, but if you participate in a homicide, you are guilty of the homicide because you were there when it took place. So, in some cases, even if you didn't kill the person, you are charged with murder also. Who's going to clarify this and correct me?

I believe you are describing "guilt by association", or "accessory to a crime"?

Guilt by Association - Definition, Examples, Cases, Processes

The idea of guilt by association, or the “association fallacy,” is that a person is guilty of a crime for simply associating with the person who committed it. This is because people assume the friend of the accused approves of the behavior, and so he likely engaged in it as well.

The way an individual normally becomes an accessory to a crime is by taking steps to hide evidence of the crime, or helping the perpetrator in carrying out the crime. Whether the friend had “good” intentions in helping his friend, or whether he claims not to have known what his friend was truly doing, neither of these explanations tends to function as a solid legal defense in the field of criminal law.

In the US, the legal charge would be "accessory to a crime", if evidenced. (While some may assume that an individual is "guilty by association", this is not always the case- and is not an actual chargeable offense).

Much more at link; hope this is what you were looking for!

 

[Spartygirl]

It would be interesting to be privy to any other teenagers and their parents info on who was supposed to be there and actually seen there that day. IMO I would like to think LE knows what kids were there and confirmed by other trustworthy sources.

I believe LE does know who was all out there that day (that they know of ) and according to them, they have spoken to them

 

[Spartygirl]

February 2020

ISP: 'One piece away' from solving Delphi homicides

"...He wants you to remember the two sketches are not photographs.

"I believe that eventually, we are going to be able to say this person's the killer, and there's a combination of those two images that will land on his face, whatever that might look like," Carter explained...."

I find it harder and maddeningly harder to understand why the ISP's website info for the Delphi murders and the FBI's website page both no longer display that first released sketch and yet ISP top officer still references it.

ISP came out on April 24, 2019, days after the 2 year press conference and stated the two sketches were NOT the same man. They also stated the new sketch more accurately represents the man in Libby's video.

Then ISP Carter also says this in that same article Feb 2020 interview..."I can't think of a time in my entire career, or in many other careers, where we have the voice of the person we believe is the killer, a photograph of who we believe is connected to the murder, and even a snip-it of how he moves," said Carter.

I'm seeing a change in description, BBM, in that statement that if thought upon for too long could lead one to believe he's talking about two people. So one person's image and another person's voice? Why not just continue with the phasing..."is the killer" vs. changing it to "who we believe is connected to the murder", a much milder description.

I don't know why but this just bothers me and makes me think there's so much we really don't realize about what happened that day.

ISP Carter also mentions LE, "...will do everything within our power, and within the parameters of law...". "within the parameters of the law".... and then he also repeats, "Somebody knows. Somebody knows."

I unfortunately think LE's hands are tied and they're at a huge impasse. Just some thoughts and I know it's rehashing a bit. AJMO

Sunshine-- you are reading my mind !! I feel exactly the same way you do.
These pressers, news articles --they act like they are speaking to the perp, who could be in the same room, yet then then they say, "somebody knows. UGH

 

[Spartygirl]

I sort feel the same way except I wouldn't say I don't trust him. I believe his approach to a murder would work with 99% of the murders one would expect in his jurisdiction. However, this isn't your typical Carroll County crime. And trying to overlay your typical local crime procedure onto this case isn't going to work. By the time he realized he was over his head it was too late. Yes, I know he called in ISP and FBI, but how long did his staff muddle around with this crime scene just like they would with any other Carroll County crime? For so long I believe they thought this crime was going to be solved within a a couple of weeks using the usual techniques going after the usual suspects.

Maybe we are saying the same thing, just a different way.

Well, I am going to just agree with you both saying it your own different ways @Awsi Dooger

 

[JDough]

Had the girls gone down the hill off the bridge before? was there something there to see? I dont know the area so dont know what it looks like down the hill off the bridge, to me sounds like he was directing them to something he wanted to show them.

The case map I linked for you earlier is an excellent overview of the area. You can see what the general area looks like, and where it is located in relation to the town of Delphi. The early news reports (also provided a link earlier), have actual "live" recordings (from helicopter view) of the area and crime scene as it was happening. Digging around in that media thread, you just might find a report or two of what might be found at MHB. (Some of which cannot be discussed on the thread- hint, hint; go take a peek)!

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree. I had said earlier that they may have done phenotyping and have an accurate image that they are keeping under wraps. When I saw the sketch they are focusing on now it seemed purposefully lacking in detail. Couple that with the carefully crafted statement from the same presser and it might indicate they know but lack enough evidence to charge and convict.

Jmo

The sketch lacks detail because of the way it was created...pick a head, pick a nose. It was not an artist’s rendition from scratch and most witnesses probably couldn’t accurately recall a whole lot of detail anyway.

“Bryant uses a "facial identification reference sheet" that has a list of different categories, from head shapes to different eyebrows and noses. The person will describe the suspect based on those categories. "(It's) easier to do that than to describe (the suspect) using just words," Bryant said...”
Delphi murders: New sketch of killer, video from Libby's phone released

 

[Spartygirl]

Wouldn't the recording give them a clue as to how many participated?

You would think so

 

[Spartygirl]

It's my belief that there is more than one perp involved. The second perp could have been in a location other than where the recording took place.

From the wording of the vid I posted, there could even be more involved, DC used the word 'group'.

So, maybe there was one perp, maybe two or more. I'm of the opinion there are two or more. BG directs them down the hill, they do what they're told, they then run in to second perp, causing the ease of controlling the girls to increase exponentially.

All speculation of course, but makes sense to me.

I don't think these murders were random. I think these girls were killed for a reason. By someone who had/has something to hide, and a lot of reputation to lose.

I am not sure I can agree with the "group" of 2 or more.
But I do agree that this was NOT random and someone has a reputation to uphold. JMO

 

[Charlot123]

I‘m sure with all the talented agencies involved that they have a strong profile. I’m guessing no DNA hit in CODIS, so now they have to go through barrels of red tape to get familial DNA testing. It’s unbelievable the process they have to go through. Frankly, with all the hoops and red tape, they are right on schedule. So much red tape.

amateur opinion and speculation

I so hope...

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe you are describing "guilt by association", or "accessory to a crime"?

Guilt by Association - Definition, Examples, Cases, Processes

The idea of guilt by association, or the “association fallacy,” is that a person is guilty of a crime for simply associating with the person who committed it. This is because people assume the friend of the accused approves of the behavior, and so he likely engaged in it as well.

The way an individual normally becomes an accessory to a crime is by taking steps to hide evidence of the crime, or helping the perpetrator in carrying out the crime. Whether the friend had “good” intentions in helping his friend, or whether he claims not to have known what his friend was truly doing, neither of these explanations tends to function as a solid legal defense in the field of criminal law.

In the US, the legal charge would be "accessory to a crime", if evidenced. (While some may assume that an individual is "guilty by association", this is not always the case- and is not an actual chargeable offense).

Much more at link; hope this is what you were looking for!

I think the poster is referring to Felony Murder - if a victim dies during the commission of a crime even if not all the culprits were responsible for the actual murder, it still applies to all when a felony was committed. The link was posted a couple times several pages back.

 

[Spartygirl]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

I think the recording caught the whole thing. I wonder what all words were spoken between the three of them.
LE knows quite a bit more than we do, and yet they haven't been able to arrest BG. Strange.

IIRC 43 seconds was recorded on Libbys phone.
JMO and my memory for reference