Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

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  • #1,301
So....the girls were out of school (extra snow day) on a random Monday & this guy just happened to be there too? Does BG not work? Was he on a lunch break? Makes the targeted theory a little dicey unless he was privy to this school schedule.
It's possible he has school age children at the same school or even a business that kids would go to on a day off. And sometimes all it takes is to look outside and see a group of kids and say oh I guess the kids have no school today.
 
  • #1,302
I agree with you completely on the fact that the killer gets off on this.

IMO the police think that there's nothing more they can share publically about the crime that will trigger the tip they need. They feel that what they've said so far should be enough to get the info they want. Putting together what Ives said about the crime scene being odd and displaying signatures, my conclusion is that there are very disturbing aspects of the crime. Going along with what you said about the killer being a sick individual, IMO they don't want to give him the satisfaction of having it be widely known to the public exactly what he did at that scene. And they want to use that info tactically.

Having said that, what they are doing is definitely a gamble. By preserving bits of info only the killer would know, they can weed out good tips from bad and catch potential POIs in lies. But then you look at a case like April Tinsley where police concealed for many years that a distinctive type of sex toy was found with her body. And you wonder if that had been known to the public, disturbing and disrespectful to her family as it might have been, would that have generated the tip that solved the case earlier? Or were police confident in their ability to investigate all avenues regarding that item of evidence and thought the benefit to secreting it more valuable than putting the information out?

With regard to LE releasing more info: when LE do these press conferences and interviews, you have to keep in mind they are not asking the wider public (us for instance) to gather up all the clues and solve the crime for them by providing some tip or idea they haven't thought of. They are reaching out to a specific person who already has the knowledge of who did this. They just need that person to recognize that they hold the key.
Great post! One thing I wish they could provide is a longer snip of BG walking. Right before the clip ends you can see on the track right in front of BG's right foot area what seems like a bigger empty space between the railroad ties. I think his unnatural lurch to the left is to avoid that and it's deceiving. A few seconds more would probably be helpful to recognizing his gait. IMO
 
  • #1,303
The families faith in LE must be dwindling on a daily basis.
I listened earlier to Doug Carter at the 2019 press conference where LE stated they were going to release ground breaking new evidence and a change of direction.
Carter: "The information being released today is the result of literally thousands and thousands of hours of extraordinary investigative efforts by Delphi, Carol county the FBI and ISP."

He then proceeded to release a sketch that was drawn up a couple of days after the incident and some audio and video that were obtained the day after! Hardly the months of hard graft Carter described.
The car info was new but details were so vague they bordered on unhelpful.
It's quite clear to me they have very little on this perpetrator.

I'm increasingly of the belief that Doug carter thinks the Guy is so engulfed with guilt that he can't sleep at night and will let slip to someone what evil he has committed?
I believe the complete opposite.

That this guy is a sick individual that gets off on the fact he killed two little girls and can't wait to do it again. He's losing no sleep over it whatsoever and has told nobody.

The police need to come clean with what they know before he does in fact do it again.
I still think the car info being so vague was on purpose and was LE's way of seeing if someone saw a particular person's car in the area, probably all tied to that person's alibi. I assumed, maybe wrongly, that LE had gotten certain satisfying tips about "the vehicle" because it hasn't been mentioned since.
 
  • #1,304
Could RL have been the one to give LE the second sketch a few days after the murders? He is old but when pressed remembered seeing the younger version out on his road. (not that that younger man was necessarily BG but a stranger to him).
I didn't realize RL said he'd seen a young stranger on his road that day? Can you provide a link for I would like to read about that. That to me could be huge. His road leads out to the big highway area, doesn't it? TIA
 
  • #1,305
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  • #1,306
The actual name of the lake is Utah Lake near Provo, Utah. The reason I thought it was a little strange is that the lake is not very deep. It is only about 14-15 feet at its deepest point. But the search and rescue says that is exactly what causes lots of waves when there is a good amount of wind. It also stirs up the lake sediment. So it is thought they got caught up in the waves and drowned. This drowning scenario has happened many times all over the country.

So the point is that it looks like a drowning of two teen girls who went tubing and got caught in the waves. At this point after so long they think if the girls are in the water it is almost certainly a recovery operation. Search and rescue thinks that most likely something would come to the surface so they have turned their attention to searching from the air since it gives them much greater visibility. They just turned to an air search yesterday I think so I am assuming they will find the girls soon.

It is human nature to want there to be an answer. I know this probably has nothing to do with Abigail Williams and Liberty German's case, but I thought it was a great example.

Yes it is a great example. And an example of how easy it is for things to go wrong for anybody.

The aspect that made me think of the Iowa girls is that initially they thought L&L had drowned in a small lake not far from their home.
 
  • #1,307
So....the girls were out of school (extra snow day) on a random Monday & this guy just happened to be there too? Does BG not work? Was he on a lunch break? Makes the targeted theory a little dicey unless he was privy to this school schedule.
It was common knowledge that there was no school that day. Indiana schools always build extra snow days into the schedule, and if the days aren’t needed they announce and post on the signs outside schools the No School dates.
 
  • #1,308
You know, my analogy would be, a general surgeon working in a local hospital and performing appendectomies, gallbladder removals, suturing wounds. And then, one day, he suddenly needs to do brain surgery because there is no helicopter and the patient is bleeding. Of course the job would be that of a general surgeon, but it is not his fault. Although I know a case when a general surgeon successfully managed, but he was also trained in cardiac surgery.
Yes, that pretty much covers it. Knowing that the crime scene was outdoors he probably made the decision to start the processing as soon as possible without ISP or FBI because lack of immediate action may have been an error in itself.
 
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  • #1,309
I am going to go with your first instinct, or post... kill in 15 minutes (half hour) and take shortcut through Cemetery.
I have believed this from day one and after going to the trails and bridge and Cemetery, it felt even stronger.
JMO
I tend to believe the same or something similar. If LE knows he left the crime scene and went in the direction of the cemetery that may be further indication that the killer knew how close he was to the cemetery. Having hunted and hiked in woods and being lost I know how it is possible to be lost and yet be so close to the area you wanted to arrive at. Someone without knowledge of the area may have turned around and gone back out the way they came in. This killer would seem to be confident in his knowledge of the area to either lead the girls to that area - or follow them there if they ran from him - and quickly get out using an alternate way.

I also wonder that instead going out through the cemetery if he would have stayed just inside the tree line and turned west before reaching the cemetery. Such a path means I would avoid being seen in the area of the cemetery and avoid using the trails. I believe that if he parked at the abandoned CPS building or the Mears parking lot (now closed to the public) he could have remained concealed until he got closer to his vehicle. Since you've been to the area would the terrain allow that route?

Such a route also makes it possible he wasn't likely seen or at least seen up close after the murders. And that would make it more likely that the witness sightings were BEFORE the murders and not after.
 
  • #1,310
I didn't realize RL said he'd seen a young stranger on his road that day? Can you provide a link for I would like to read about that. That to me could be huge. His road leads out to the big highway area, doesn't it? TIA

No, no, no, I didn't mean that he HAD seen a person. I don't remember what day they hauled him into jail for violating his probation but they might have drilled him to see if he remembered seeing anyone. I should have put JMO.Sorry
 
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  • #1,311
Yes, that pretty much covers it. Knowing that the crime scene was outdoors he probably made the decision to start the processing as soon as possible without ISP or FBI because lack of immediate action may have been an error in itself.

So you are saying that in your opinion local police...either Delphi police or Carroll County police...took control of the crime scene and blundered in processing it prior to calling in help from ISP or FBI?

ISP was already on location Wednesday morning BEFORE the bodies were found. The FBI Evidence Response Team was on scene on Wednesday at 12:37 pm according to this article:
Police confirm bodies found near Delphi are missing teens, searching for suspect

The ISP delivered the press conference that afternoon to announce the girls had been found and the suspect was at large. They had already assumed control of the case.

If you want to think the hold up in this case is due to a contaminated crime scene or police blunders, that's fine but you can't just make up stuff like "local police probably processed this when they were too inexperienced to do so" because there is absolutely no evidence that they were in charge of it.
 
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  • #1,313
I must say, and I apologize up front, because my thoughts on this entire case are at times born out of being totally baffled.

I mean seriously, in possession of the FBI, and numerous other professional LE services, not to mention likely an entire myriad of other individuals, is

1. video of what we are told is a prime suspect, BG
2. numerous still photos from said video
3. voice recordings of what we are told is a prime suspect, BG
4. crime scene, bodies of the victims, and all associated evidence

and yet, they have not brought charges.

Am I totally wrong in thinking they know who the killer is? Probably. With the aforementioned facts, am I to conclude they have NO IDEA who killed these girls? Probably closer to the truth.

Talk me out of this websleuthers. Talk me out of the idea that the FBI, in conjunction with all other agencies, professionals, analysts, detectives, etc. who have video, still photos, voice recordings, bodies, and all related evidence from the scene, and can't find the killer, that they have no idea who it is.
Unfortunately... I need to be talked out of this thought process myself. Because I just don’t think LE has any idea who killed these girls. They likely have a solid profile and probably know a few guys that perfectly fit their profile. They might believe any one of these guys could have committed this crime but have nothing—as far as evidence—that connects them to it.

As I compiled the list of quotes from the media thread, I noticed that LE refers to this investigation as a rollercoaster. Specifically, they talk about tips that have led to solid leads and how they’ve been able to eliminate certain suspects when the leads didn’t pan out.

In my personal opinion, I think LE is so focused on BG being local that it’s become a hinderance to the case. I don’t think he’s local to Carroll County. Indiana, maybe... but I wouldn’t bet on it.

I believe this crime was committed by a serial killer. I believe he may have seen the girls being dropped off alone and decided to take advantage of the opportunity. I think he parked somewhere nearby and planned to coax them to get into his car by threatening them with a weapon. I think the girls may have initially complied with his demands and were killed when they attempted to run/fight back.
 
  • #1,314
So you are saying that in your opinion local police...either Delphi police or Carroll County police...took control of the crime scene and blundered in processing it prior to calling in help from ISP or FBI?

ISP was already on location Wednesday morning BEFORE the bodies were found. The FBI Evidence Response Team was on scene on Wednesday at 12:37 pm according to this article:
Police confirm bodies found near Delphi are missing teens, searching for suspect

The ISP delivered the press conference that afternoon to announce the girls had been found and the suspect was at large. They had already assumed control of the case.

If you want to think the hold up in this case is due to a contaminated crime scene or police blunders, that's fine but you can't just make up stuff like "local police probably processed this when they were too inexperienced to do so" because there is absolutely no evidence that they were in charge of it.
Let's be clear here. I'm saying it is a POSSIBILITY at most. In fact, in my statement, "Knowing that the crime scene was outdoors he probably made the decision to start the processing as soon as possible without ISP or FBI because lack of immediate action may have been an error in itself." I'm not stating that an error or blunder was ACTUALLY made.

Sheriff Leazenby may have looked at the crime scene and been faced with 'Do we do this immediately or do we wait for what might be a more experienced ISP unit to look at it?' I would imagine if this question occurred to him he didn't ponder it very long. With an outdoor crime scene LE needs to be on it as soon as possible. I certainly have no doubt that doing nothing until ISP or FBI crime scene investigators would in itself be an error as we have no idea what evidence could have deteriorated when left to the elements. IF an error was made, and let me make it entirely clear I DID NOT say it did, it was far better to get on the crime scene as soon as possible. Further still, if you catch the gist of my statement it is a defense of LE getting on the crime scene as soon as possible - if that indeed happened.

At no time do I mention 'evidence of a blunder or error'. In fact, I try to make liberal use of words or phrases like "I believe", "I wonder", "possible" or "probably". It is all conjecture or speculation on the part of all of us at this point.
 
  • #1,315
RS&BBM

They were found on Tuesday, Feb 14th, Valentine's Day.
I notice the article is dated at 12:37 on Wednesday and the FBI team was there at that time. They could have been there earlier though, since the article does not indicate when the FBI team actually arrived and actually started processing. It is interesting that it is apparently over 24 hours after the discovery of the bodies and LE is still processing the area.
 
  • #1,316
I notice the article is dated at 12:37 on Wednesday and the FBI team was there at that time. They could have been there earlier though, since the article does not indicate when the FBI team actually arrived and actually started processing. It is interesting that it is apparently over 24 hours after the discovery of the bodies and LE is still processing the area.

Somewhere in the very earliest threads MSM mentions that a member of the FBI was there during the search the first night.
 
  • #1,317
Let's be clear here. I'm saying it is a POSSIBILITY at most. In fact, in my statement, "Knowing that the crime scene was outdoors he probably made the decision to start the processing as soon as possible without ISP or FBI because lack of immediate action may have been an error in itself." I'm not stating that an error or blunder was ACTUALLY made.

Sheriff Leazenby may have looked at the crime scene and been faced with 'Do we do this immediately or do we wait for what might be a more experienced ISP unit to look at it?' I would imagine if this question occurred to him he didn't ponder it very long. With an outdoor crime scene LE needs to be on it as soon as possible. I certainly have no doubt that doing nothing until ISP or FBI crime scene investigators would in itself be an error as we have no idea what evidence could have deteriorated when left to the elements. IF an error was made, and let me make it entirely clear I DID NOT say it did, it was far better to get on the crime scene as soon as possible. Further still, if you catch the gist of my statement it is a defense of LE getting on the crime scene as soon as possible - if that indeed happened.

At no time do I mention 'evidence of a blunder or error'. In fact, I try to make liberal use of words or phrases like "I believe", "I wonder", "possible" or "probably". It is all conjecture or speculation on the part of all of us at this point.

But why would he do this when the ISP and the FBI were already there? According to the article I posted, they were. It's not like it took days or even hours for them to arrive.

<modsnip: rude and personalizing>
 
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  • #1,318
I notice the article is dated at 12:37 on Wednesday and the FBI team was there at that time. They could have been there earlier though, since the article does not indicate when the FBI team actually arrived and actually started processing. It is interesting that it is apparently over 24 hours after the discovery of the bodies and LE is still processing the area.

But what about the ISP that had roads blocked off before the girls were even found, and were assisting on scene that morning? The department that to this day has charge of the case?
 
  • #1,319
But why would he do this when the ISP and the FBI were already there? According to the article I posted, they were. It's not like it took days or even hours for them to arrive.

<modsnip: rude and personalizing>
We know that ISP and a local FBI agent were on the scene. But do we know when trained crime scene investigators were on scene - for example, those trained in identifying evidence that might have DNA or fingerprints and how to preserve them? We know from your article that the FBI had a team there on Wednesday over 24 hours after the bodies were found, but we can't tell from that article if they arrived at 12:37 on Wednesday OR if they arrived at 12:37 on Tuesday. There are some things the first responder can do like determine how large an area needs to be restricted to access, photographing the scene, what evidence needs immediate attention and so on.
 
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  • #1,320
I was listening to a podcast last evening on another case here on WS. The podcast was interviewing a WS member, who is a professional Tracker. He talked quite a bit about how much footprints can reveal; height, weight, direction of movement, whether they were carrying something, whether they are right handed or left, any disabilities, and so forth. I am only hoping someone with similar expertise reviewed the prints at this crime scene.

Here is an interesting article from a forensic podiatrist, coincidentally in Indiana, who weighs in on "How Forensic Podiatry can Identify Criminals". Interesting read: https://www.policechiefmagazine.org...how-forensic-podiatry-can-identify-criminals/

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
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