Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

[Angels27]

That sounds right to me, but I really can't remember.

I want to say that maybe the time of that photo has never been definitive. Something to do with upload time vs. actual photo time? Or incorrect timestamp, or something? I'm sure someone else remembers. I want to say gray hughes (sp?) did a video on it and tried to determine the time using shadows. I thought the video was interesting and impressive, but I'm kind of a math, geometry, trigonometry nerd.

Edit: nevermind. The video I referenced was concerning a different picture.

There was no timestamp on it but a friend of one of the girls had saved it to her phone after I think it was 8 minutes around 2:17 or something like that. The photo at that point was labeled 8 mins ago. ? Not specific on the time, but u get the gist.

 

[technicallymissing]

Podcast says one of the friends of Libby’s grandfather spotted her tie dye shirt from afar and then zoomed in. How did he know she was wearing a tie dye shirt unless her sister remembered and mentioned it to LE who later mentioned it to everyone there.

I mean, by the time they were sending out search parties I'm sure they had taken basic descriptions of what the girls were wearing and let people know what to look out for.

 

[Yemelyan]

IMO
Crime of opportunity: crime that is committed without planning when the perpetrator sees that they have a chance to commit the act at that moment and seizes it.
- since BG seemed prepared with possible tools to commit the murder, I don’t see it being a crime of opportunity (and not aware of anyone hunting/working or someone that would have the tools)

Victims of circumstance: an individual who suffers from ill consequences because of factors that were out of his control
- best example: criminal chose random house to rob but owner is home. Pertaining to the case, IF it was going to happen regardless and they happen to be the victim, then I can only think of a lying and wait type scenario. I’m sure you can think of more scenarios but I couldn’t.

Does his answer really rule out everything we think it does?
(I’m not referring to SM and admit I’m probably bias since I think it’s someone who knew they would at the bridge)

I think I missed some posts so I’ll go back and see if it’s already been discussed but if not, what are the scenarios still possible after his statement?
ETA: IMO

Just my interpretation but I think that "opportunity" refers directly to victim selection by the perpetrator. He chose opportunistically based on the potential victims he came across at the place he chose to commit the crime. IMO it doesn't imply that he had no intention to commit a crime but suddenly snapped. It doesn't preclude
things like bringing weapons, bringing restraints, etc in the hopes that an opportunity to offend will present.

IMO what his answer does eliminate are advance stalking or luring scenarios where he planned for these particular victims (and only them) for days or weeks ahead of time.

But these are my opinions only.

 

[Snoop Sister]

Good post. I’m sure LE has checked to see which phones were pinging off of nearby towers at that time. I wonder if he had his turned on. And I wonder what phones they registered as being near there then. They must know a lot. Maybe even who did it.

Regarding checking what cells were pinging off the towers, there were some legal issues with that...ie) no probable cause. “It was a time when the laws regarding cell phones were first evolving” - Robert Ives

 

[Angels27]

My only point was I don’t think his presentation during the PC is proof anybody was taunting the PD.

If that occurred it’d actually be a good thing because it’d increase the likelihood he’d be traced and captured, as opposed to the perp staying silent and going unnoticed.

Yeah, how do they even know this perp is still alive even or still in town? Seems like they know something.

 

[Angels27]

I listened to the Down the Hill podcast this morning and they mentioned the girls were found in a culvert. What does this mean exactly?
noun

1. a tunnel carrying a stream or open drain under a road or railroad.

He probably put them there bc it’s harder for tracking dogs to detect scent in water.

 

[Spartygirl]

We don’t know if it was a security camera or an eyewitness. It would make sense to assume they highly suspect it was the perp’s vehicle for the following reasons, and if...


1. No one ever parked there and this vehicle did

2. especially on that day and especially between those hours. The perfect amount of time, I might add, to plan, hunt and execute such a crime and move and/or hide the bodies, bury under leaves for example, and walk back to said vehicle.

3. No one has come forward yet to claim ownership, despite the public knowing about it and LE’s request for info.

4. The positioning of the park in a place removed from the trails and other normal parking areas for said trails.

5. LE requesting the public’s help at the PC and giving the specific hours the vehicle was there, also alerting any family members or friends of potential perp as to his having “gone missing” during those hours on that specific
date.

6. Many others. Too tired to think right now. Feel free to add more if you think of any.

BBM- we parked there when we were there and to walk to FB and the beginning of the trails, we were way out in the open.
If we had kept walking to the spot where KG dropped off, we would have been in the road all that way and in the open.
I dont think he would have wanted to be seen out in the open like that.
JMO

 

[Spartygirl]

There was no timestamp on it but a friend of one of the girls had saved it to her phone after I think it was 8 minutes around 2:17 or something like that. The phone at that point was labeled 8 mins ago. ? Not specific on the time, but u get the gist.

And then a cousin of one of the girls got it and IIRC, that is where LE got it from.

 

[Charlot123]

If the scene was staged as if by a serial killer, maybe it was just that: staged, to throw cops off of his real targeted intent.

That is the thing, no one knows the intent.

Per someone’s advise, I downloaded Google Earth and looked at that private driveway. You know what really shocked me? There are roads, streets, there is town on both sides of that bridge! I thought, farmland everywhere, but not to such a degree that people can't run.

So it was really, in broad daylight, basically, in the city.

In my mind, he is local or very often standing in some local house.

I also think, if he somehow manipulated them into crossing the creek, he planned it all. And if so - I don't know if he killed before, probably, yes, but he planned something similar.

Maybe he killed an animal there, before. He is somehow trained to do it fast. He knows how to incapacitate the victim, fast.. Maybe he knows the points to push. Maybe he had medical training.

I don't think Evansdale murders are connected. However, if LE have suspects, I'd check if there were another murders in the places where these suspects grew or went to school.

 

[Angels27]

Except for the fact that Leazenby just told us yesterday in the Carroll County Comet article that this crime was NOT planned and that the girls were "victims of circumstance or opportunity." If we accept that he's not lying to the public, then....not planned eliminates any scenario where he stalks them on social media, lures them on social media, overhears their plans and shows up to intercept them, etc.

thanks. I didn’t see that yet.

 

[Spartygirl]

Podcast says one of the friends of Libby’s grandfather spotted her tie dye shirt from afar and then zoomed in. How did he know she was wearing a tie dye shirt unless her sister remembered and mentioned it to LE who later mentioned it to everyone there.

because BP was with him. and KG may have told him or because she wore them a lot.
Which is why they have these tye-dye shirts at the fundraisers

 

[Angels27]

Bolded by me...LE did specifically call it a car when they released their clarification points on the day following the April press conference, for whatever that is worth:

Indiana State Police releases clarification points on Delphi murder suspect

Ok, so that narrows it down substantially. Thanks.

 

[MsBetsy]

It said he knew it was her tie dye shirt.

What or who said he knew her tie dye shirt?

A family member may have described what she was wearing. He may not have known for sure, but since it was colorful it probably caught his eye.

 

[janewall]

Perhaps the shirt was noticed simply because it was a tie-dye shirt.....bright....stood out....?

It definitely would stand out in a barren winter woods scene!

When I was going through photos of the girls shared by the families a couple of years ago, I noticed that Libby seemed to wear tie-dye a lot. If it was part of her fashion sense, I can see the family friend being aware of that, and his attention being drawn to any visible tie-dye when he was looking for her. Not so much he recognized that specific shirt, but that he realized in the search area any tie-dye was very likely to be linked to who he was looking for.

Or maybe a tie-dye shirt was specifically noted in the description given to all the searchers, if Kelsie or someone else in the family had noticed she was wearing it earlier in the day.

 

[Angels27]

I'm not disagreeing that the vehicle has importance but you have some assumptions here that may or may not be true....

1. We don't know that "no one ever parked there" - if you look at this building on Google Earth you'll see that you can walk right onto the trails from the parking lot. Just because the building was abandoned, IMO, does not mean people didn't continue to use the lot to park when walking the trails, as the area at the Mary Gerrard Preserve (where the girls were dropped off) didn't hold many cars.

To your point 3, "no one has ever come forward" - how on earth could any of us know this. LE, who has been so tight-lipped about the investigation, would never release this IMO whether they found it was related or unrelated. They have stopped asking about it so one could assume perhaps that someone did come forward. This may not have been a POI but a witness.

4. It wasn't removed from the trails, it was immediately adjacent to the trail as stated in point 1.

Thanks for info. Not that familiar with this case yet. I assumed the building was a ways away from trails.

 

[Charlot123]

He probably put them there bc it’s harder for tracking dogs to detect scent in water.

Probably. And how much does one have to know? I am on this forum for a few years, and it is only during the last month that I am finding out about the tracking dogs.

This guy moves fast, can abduct, incapacitate and kill fast, he knows about DNA, he knows about the dogs, i bet he knows anatomy (at least, neck), he is absolutely 3-dimentional, he has great spatial feeling. He can change his looks, he moves fast. And he is in broad daylight. And he knows about cellphones.

Can anyone learn it all on Quora? Probably, but one would leave traces.

 

[Angels27]

Libby apparently had crossed the bridge a number of times. Abby, though she had been to the trails and Deer Creek, had never crossed the bridge.

Maybe BG has seen Libby there before and thought nice warm day, no school. Maybe she’ll show again. Another thing to consider is that BG probably knew he’d have to deal with at least 2 kids. I mean what young girl is going to go into a place like that alone? He was probably ready with whatever he’d need to capture and subdue them both.

 

[Spartygirl]

Probably. And how much does one have to know? I am on this forum for a few years, and it is only during the last month that I am finding out about the tracking dogs.

This guy moves fast, can abduct, incapacitate and kill fast, he knows about DNA, he knows about the dogs, i bet he knows anatomy (at least, neck), he is absolutely 3-dimentional, he has great spatial feeling. He can change his looks, he moves fast. And he is in broad daylight. And he knows about cellphones.

Can anyone learn it all on Quora? Probably, but one would leave traces.

He was on a mission.
IMO

 

[minazoe]

I watched this true crime about guy in Australia I think ..anyway he waited around by the train station looking for his
victims.

in one of his murders he was nearby the train, he grabbed a young girl leaving her classes at school crossing the track field. going towards the station.

he dragged her to a spot nearby where he had earlier cut a hole in the fence by the track field so he could bring her through to a small area with trees where he brutally killed her...

right after he walked miles in the rain to his girlfriend's mothers house and had dinner like nothing happened.

he later had no idea why he did these things.

A person like this is referred to as a brute,

it's hard to imagine I know.

mOO

 

[Angels27]

Let us put it so. He said "persons-specific" in one interview and says "victims of circumstances and opportunity" in another. If he is not lying, and it might be so that it was the truth, then one has to ask Leazenby about specific circumstances that made the girls victims.

Yeah, don’t u find it odd at first 4 years ago he said “the public had nothing to worry about.” !?!?!? Wth was that all about!? They NEVER say that, especially in a brutally violent case like this, unless they are certain it wasn’t random! I really think they might suspect a targeted attack but just can’t prove it. It really bothers me and it should bother everyone else that he said that immediately after such a crime. !?!?!?!?