Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #143

[Peppery]

I think if LE has a blue jacket they know is definitely THE jacket then they’d almost certainly have BG’s DNA. Maybe there’s multiple DNA profiles on it and they can’t be sure which is his. One way they could be positive it’s THE jacket is if it has either or both girls DNA on it, likely blood but could be saliva, sweat, tears, or hair as well.
All that’s if they have his jacket, which I don’t think they do.

 

[carbuff]

TL's comment on not "THE" blue jacket always struck me. Could it maybe mean they have fiber evidence?

Something that would tie to one specific item of clothing, anyway.

 

[Ozoner]

Something that would tie to one specific item of clothing, anyway.

It could simply be that the ISPD knows that "the" jacket would have blood or bloodstains on it (or show signs that blood was removed with hydrogen peroxide or some other chemical).

 

[carbuff]

It could simply be that the ISPD knows that "the" jacket would have blood or bloodstains on it (or show signs that blood was removed with hydrogen peroxide or some other chemical).

Yeah. Or it could have a distinctive tear or stain, or a patch or other marking, or aforementioned fiber or hair evidence, or probably a lot of other things I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.

 

[LeBlack]

There are two things that make me think LE do know more about the clothing. Both things came from the HLN "Down the Hill" special. One is TL saying that they have had many people turn in blue jackets, but not "THE" blue jacket. So they must know this...but how? There are many possibilities.

The second was TL saying, again from the HLN special, that from what he knows there are elements in the video that investigators are still looking into and that he believes will come up at trial. So I have to wonder if one or more of these elements in the video have to do with the identification of the clothing. Just some thoughts.

Whenever there is a Tropical Storm or Hurricane, news stations will trot out their reporters in paper thin 'windbreakers' that flop around like crazy. People local to the storm know that the wind didn't get 'that strong' as appears on TV. Would also explain why only 1-2 seconds of video were released.

 

[ghostrighter]

Could it be that they already HAVE the blue jacket?

AMOO MOO JMO

That's a posibilty. Maybe he ditched the jacket and left the area only wearing a hoodie or flannel. Moo

 

[JnRyan]

Since the photos came out, I suspect that jacket is in a garbage site now. Tossed out along with all the other clothing items, especially if there was any blood or other such forensic evidence on them and any item used to kill - eg., knife, blunt instrument, cord. In fact, I would consider that one of the changes involving the killer for those around him to be aware of. A blue jacket he no longer is seen wearing. Probably claimed it was badly torn or otherwise damaged so he threw it out. Yeah, a guy with those mannerisms in the short video (if they can be noted while walking on that bridge), possible shorter or longer hair, grew a beard and no longer seen with his blue jacket after the murders.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Maybe they have the jacket; or maybe they have fibers from it.

I suppose it is in the way that they have said (loose quote) " Many have brought us jackets, but not THE jacket.

It makes me think they do have it. And...if there is DNA present from the killer, it has been degraded by something or they can't match it.

If the jacket had blood from the girls, and a lot of it...wouldn't that degrade any DNA from him? Just wondering if anyone knows?

AMOO JMO MOO

EBM spelling

 

[wary]

Interesting thought. When I heard TL say the quote about “many people turn in blue jackets, but not "THE" blue jacket” my initial thought was that LE have THE jacket already. How else Will they know that one of the jackets handed in is not THE jacket?

MOO

BG could have taken it off as part of changing his look after the murders. He could have abandoned it, maybe because it had blood on it. He could have felt confident that it couldn’t be traced back to him.

BUT, if the above was true, and LE had the jacket, I don’t see any way that THEY could know that it couldn’t be traced back to BG—so why wouldn’t they have tried? Wouldn’t that have been an insane degree of keeping evidence away from the general public? It seems to me that, no matter how generic the jacket was, it might have inspired a helpful tip.

MOO

 

[Yemelyan]

I suppose it is in the way that they have said (loose quote) " Many have brought us jackets, but not THE jacket.

It makes me think they do have it. And...if there is DNA present from the killer, it has been degraded by something or they can't match it.

If the jacket had blood from the girls, and a lot of it...wouldn't that degrade any DNA from him? Just wondering if anyone knows?

AMOO JMO MOO

EBM spelling

A victim's blood completely saturating a section of a perpetrator's clothing that carried small amounts of perpetrator DNA is not going to degrade the perpetrator DNA (as in, denature it, destroy it, tear it apart -- like bleach will, for example). But what it will do, if there is a lot of victim blood and a small amount of shed skin cells from the perpetrator, is drown out or overwhelm the "signal" from the perpetrator's DNA, so that when analysis is done it may not look like two complete and individual DNA profiles are there, it may look like the victim's and then a partial profile where some information has dropped out.

Obviously this complicates the analysis greatly and hinders the investigation; it does not necessarily mean that a full perpetrator profile can never, ever be developed IMO - technology could improve and in fact, different private labs already have their own proprietary methods of dealing with this situation. MOO

 

[Megnut]

If BG arrived at the park with a plan (he knew the girls would be there, they didn't know he would be), he may have stashed a bag below the bridge. A bag containing the coat, the jeans, the cap -- of which others, not him contributed the greater DNA.

Early park goers may have seen him as he really is. Younger, thinner. Sketch.

LE may not have connected him in any way to BG as seen in the video, that is until young guy and older guy were the only two park goers for which they couldn't account.

Close to the time the girls begin to cross the bridge, BG may have added the bulky layers, concealing his appearance and his weapon/s.

He gains control of the girls.

And afterwards, removes the jacket, jeans, cap, places them in his backpack and walks away. Young guy.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

If BG arrived at the park with a plan (he knew the girls would be there, they didn't know he would be), he may have stashed a bag below the bridge. A bag containing the coat, the jeans, the cap -- of which others, not him contributed the greater DNA.

Early park goers may have seen him as he really is. Younger, thinner. Sketch.

LE may not have connected him in any way to BG as seen in the video, that is until young guy and older guy were the only two park goers for which they couldn't account.

Close to the time the girls begin to cross the bridge, BG may have added the bulky layers, concealing his appearance and his weapon/s.

He gains control of the girls.

And afterwards, removes the jacket, jeans, cap, places them in his backpack and walks away. Young guy.

JMO

I guess my question with the long-standing theories about him wearing a disguise is that if he had planned this crime, then what's the point in disguising himself to victim(s) he was going to kill, anyway? I don't believe he knew he would be captured on video. In fact, he probably thought that location was ridiculously safe from being caught on camera.

It could be he wore a disguise on the trail and removed it after the murders, but again, if he planned the crimes, why be seen on the trail at all?

It's just very much moo, but it doesn't feel like the kind of event where the killer planned to wear a disguise (which would probably have to include a different vehicle than his own), specifically to fool witnesses on the trail beforehand, and of which would then need to be removed and disposed afterwards while he exited without being seen. It's just too elaborate for what I, personally, see happening.

I could be really off base, too.

 

[dotr]

July 8, 2021
Katherine Ramsland, Ph.D

How the Psychology of Place Informs a Profiler—Or a Killer | Psychology Today Canada
''KEY POINTS

• How people engage with their location reveals layers of emotion and personality.
• Geographic profilers use this information to understand and anticipate offender activity there.''

''For example, the man who murdered Libby German and Abby Williams near the deteriorating Monon High Bridge at Indiana’s Delphi Historic Trails in 2017 had likely been familiar with this area. He'd noticed that kids hike there and he’d calculated the best place to molest and kill them undetected. For the girls, the bridge was a fun photo-op; for their killer, the best spot to corner prey''

''The Monan High Bridge killer seemed comfortable with heights and with a bridge that had uncertain footing.''

''Rossmo categorized four predatory patterns: a hunter searches in his comfort zone, a poacher travels to outlying territory, a troller is mostly opportunistic, and a trapper lures victims to a specific place. (There are also mixed types.)''

''Given the rural milieu, he’s most likely a local. He arrived to the location at least partially on foot, prepared to commit a crime, and prepared to escape.''

''The places where offenders work, shop, hang out, and recreate define their comfort zone, which includes their “crime awareness space.” They know where the opportunities are.''

 

[JnRyan]

I guess my question with the long-standing theories about him wearing a disguise is that if he had planned this crime, then what's the point in disguising himself to victim(s) he was going to kill, anyway? I don't believe he knew he would be captured on video. In fact, he probably thought that location was ridiculously safe from being caught on camera.

It could be he wore a disguise on the trail and removed it after the murders, but again, if he planned the crimes, why be seen on the trail at all?

It's just very much moo, but it doesn't feel like the kind of event where the killer planned to wear a disguise (which would probably have to include a different vehicle than his own), specifically to fool witnesses on the trail beforehand, and of which would then need to be removed and disposed afterwards while he exited without being seen. It's just too elaborate for what I, personally, see happening.

I could be really off base, too.

That's pretty much my line of reasoning. The best disguise is dressing like everyone else and fitting in. IOW, don't stand out or you will get noticed. We know we supposedly have 'witnesses', plural. But I wonder how many for sure saw the killer or someone else? And it could be possible that a trail user or two had the killer come within sight of them, but because they were preoccupied with something else - parking their car, planning which way to go first OR (most likely) doing something on their cell phone. Perhaps someone actually saw him as a movement in the corner of their eye, briefly noted it as a person and went back to their phone.

This killer is not seen on video wearing ball cap that I can tell. One photo doesn't even look like he is wearing any kind of head covering. He doesn't have a hoodie pulled up over his head and he isn't even wearing sunglasses. The brightest article this killer is wearing is that blue jacket and it really isn't all that memorable. He isn't wearing a bright red jacket or a hunters orange cap or neon green athletic shoes. All basically subdued colors. If LE hadn't told me this guy in the photos is the killer he would just seem like anyone else I would see on the trails that day. This guy's disguise, to me anyway, is no attempt at a disguise. Just fit in.

But that is just my take on it.

 

[JnRyan]

Thinking back on another experience on fitting in or getting noticed was an orientation upon arriving in Italy when I was in the military. The speaker said don't worry, even though this is a big city, the locals will notice you right away and not only know you're not from here but that you are an American. Just by looking at you walking down the street before you even say anything.

I asked how that could be and he said for one it is the way you walk and carry yourself. If you're new here, you're looking at the buildings in a different way than the locals because Italian architecture is different to you. Most Italian men do not wear running shoes or blue jeans or sweat shirts. You want to fit in, dress like the Italian men - slacks, leather shoes, preferably loafers and button up shirt with no button down collar. No polo shirts, T's or hoodies if you want to fit in.

Not long after that - wearing blue jeans, polo shirt and New Balance shoes, ie., not bothering to fit in - I walk down the street and stop at an intersection. A young teenage boy of 12 or 13 asks me, in English, 'Are you an American?' I replied that I was, but how did he think that. He said you just look like they all do on the American movies and TV shows. That after less than an hour in town.

 

[Prime8]

Thinking back on another experience on fitting in or getting noticed was an orientation upon arriving in Italy when I was in the military. The speaker said don't worry, even though this is a big city, the locals will notice you right away and not only know you're not from here but that you are an American. Just by looking at you walking down the street before you even say anything.

I asked how that could be and he said for one it is the way you walk and carry yourself. If you're new here, you're looking at the buildings in a different way than the locals because Italian architecture is different to you. Most Italian men do not wear running shoes or blue jeans or sweat shirts. You want to fit in, dress like the Italian men - slacks, leather shoes, preferably loafers and button up shirt with no button down collar. No polo shirts, T's or hoodies if you want to fit in.

Not long after that - wearing blue jeans, polo shirt and New Balance shoes, ie., not bothering to fit in - I walk down the street and stop at an intersection. A young teenage boy of 12 or 13 asks me, in English, 'Are you an American?' I replied that I was, but how did he think that. He said you just look like they all do on the American movies and TV shows. That after less than an hour in town.

That's interesting. I've had the opposite experience as well when I'm attempting to fit it (ie single female who doesn't want to draw attention as an "other"). It does take some work but really isn't too hard- dressing like a local and being uninterested in your surroundings and knowing where you're going with a confident walk. Multiple times when visiting a foreign country, I have been mistaken for a local. This is more of a stark contrast than a Midwesterner visiting another Midwest town.

 

[AC4RD]

... not only know you're not from here but that you are an American. Just by looking at you walking down the street before you even say anything. ... in English, 'Are you an American?' I replied that I was, but how did he think that. He said you just look like they all do on the American movies and TV shows. That after less than an hour in town.

First, I think you and TL4S both may be right: I can picture a murderer wearing a loose jacket and hoodie over everything else he's wearing--maybe even loose jeans--with the intent of taking them off after his crimes. Witnesses then tell police about the suspicious guy hanging around the trailhead, dressed in Costume #1. Others have noticed the thinner guy in jogging shorts and a green polo shirt *after* the murders, and reported seeing him; nobody thinks (at first, maybe ever) that they're two different people. Maybe? (shrug) FWIW.

Your anecdote reminded me of something (OT, sorry) I hadn't thought of in years: about 1991 a young physician named Jason was doing a residency where I worked. He went on a rotation to a hospital in China for part of a year. And we all had fun teasing about how he would fit right in and nobody would know he was a foreigner in China: Jason was taller than I am (6'2") and had bright red hair and beard. "Yeah, Jason, speak English so they'll know you aren't native Chinese!" He told me later that the docs he was working with commented about how it was always easy to find Jason in a crowd of Chinese--a bright red beacon a foot above the crowd.

 

[Marzipan]

MOO

BG could have taken it off as part of changing his look after the murders. He could have abandoned it, maybe because it had blood on it. He could have felt confident that it couldn’t be traced back to him.

BUT, if the above was true, and LE had the jacket, I don’t see any way that THEY could know that it couldn’t be traced back to BG—so why wouldn’t they have tried? Wouldn’t that have been an insane degree of keeping evidence away from the general public? It seems to me that, no matter how generic the jacket was, it might have inspired a helpful tip.

MOO

Must be for the same reason they didn’t disclose any shoe size/brand/type info, which MOO they certainly must have. What reason that is, heck if I know. Someone with more knowledge and insight on investigations might remind me. I’ve heard reasons before but my brain is a sieve (or to be kinder to myself, I’ll say my brain is fully occupied with work and family stuff right now and at holding capacity).

 

[interestedincases]

The discussion of the jacket brings back a memory for me.......

When I was young, my mom's cousin was murdered. Police always suspected her next door neighbor, but couldn't ever get that one piece of evidence to seal it.

Fast forward to 10 years later and they were able to search his home on another warrant and they found a JACKET in his closet. They were able to match that jacket to the fibers found under her fingernails when she died.

He was convicted and killed himself while in prison.

They could rule in/out jackets IF either of the girls had fibers under the nails (which I pray they did!)

Edited for wording correction

 

[Justice101]

praying to catch this killer..