Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #143

[MistyWaters]

I suppose it is in the way that they have said (loose quote) " Many have brought us jackets, but not THE jacket.

It makes me think they do have it. And...if there is DNA present from the killer, it has been degraded by something or they can't match it.

If the jacket had blood from the girls, and a lot of it...wouldn't that degrade any DNA from him? Just wondering if anyone knows?

AMOO JMO MOO

EBM spelling

I’d have to wonder where did these jackets come from? LE would know none is THE jacket if the owner of same, now jacketless, was nowhere around Delphi on Feb 13, 2017.

 

[Laura456]

They absolutely need to release more information

 

[somequestions]

Yeah. Or it could have a distinctive tear or stain, or a patch or other marking, or aforementioned fiber or hair evidence, or probably a lot of other things I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.

That is the problem. Even a tear or a patch, how would that match up to the video? People overanalyze that video, but unfortunately the reality is that it is too pixelated and grainy to come to an identification of much of anything. People see all sorts of different types of hats and clothing in the video.

I understand the reality is that this person on the bridge could be anyone from any type of job who fits the general description of the person in the video(or one of the sketches assuming the sketches are based on good eyewitness statements).

Sometimes it is the small details that cause you to think you have found the answer. I know sometimes I am obsessed with the details. But there really is nothing there, because it could be a blue jacket or a blue windbreaker, one type of hat or another, one type of patch or another, one type of blue jean or another. Looking too closely at the details is why.

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

July 8, 2021
Katherine Ramsland, Ph.D

How the Psychology of Place Informs a Profiler—Or a Killer | Psychology Today Canada
''KEY POINTS

• How people engage with their location reveals layers of emotion and personality.
• Geographic profilers use this information to understand and anticipate offender activity there.''

''For example, the man who murdered Libby German and Abby Williams near the deteriorating Monon High Bridge at Indiana’s Delphi Historic Trails in 2017 had likely been familiar with this area. He'd noticed that kids hike there and he’d calculated the best place to molest and kill them undetected. For the girls, the bridge was a fun photo-op; for their killer, the best spot to corner prey''

''The Monan High Bridge killer seemed comfortable with heights and with a bridge that had uncertain footing.''

''Rossmo categorized four predatory patterns: a hunter searches in his comfort zone, a poacher travels to outlying territory, a troller is mostly opportunistic, and a trapper lures victims to a specific place. (There are also mixed types.)''

''Given the rural milieu, he’s most likely a local. He arrived to the location at least partially on foot, prepared to commit a crime, and prepared to escape.''

''The places where offenders work, shop, hang out, and recreate define their comfort zone, which includes their “crime awareness space.” They know where the opportunities are.''

Excellent to finally see some science on this topic.

 

[Lavender Moon]

If there was no one there, how do the witnesses who helped with the drawings fit in?

Also, during your trip through the woods, did you come across any sticker bushes?

Hi, FrostedGlass, I'm curious about the significance of sticker bushes.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Hi, FrostedGlass, I'm curious about the significance of sticker bushes.

In this Alexis McAdams/Sgt Holeman interview which is transcribed here at the link below, they are talking about the difficult terrain the girls would have had to go through to get from the bridge to the spot where their bodies were found. Holeman mentions sticker bushes. In the videos I've watched, I haven't seen anyone complaining about stickers. Since AD has been there, I thought he would be a good person to ask.

I also thought about the jacket being torn by stickers, or blood drawn or whatever else.
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION Post 786

 

[FrostedGlass]

Regarding the discussion as to if there was anyone at the trails that day, we all know LE has been very tight-lipped about the witnesses so this is the closest I've come to verification of people on the trails:

Sgt. Kim Riley talking about BG:

We've been able to identify almost everybody else that's been on that trail and this..this Gentleman has not been identified and we want to know what he saw, what he might have seen on the trail. Uh, did he see somebody else that maybe some of the others didn't see.

 

[acutename]

Yes. I've said it many times before, but the one thing that remained the same through both sketches was the hair color: reddish-brown. Again, this could be something the witnesses simply agreed on, but I've always suspected that perhaps there is hair evidence. My personal feeling is that there was likely a struggle, to some extent, and if BG had a hat on, it easily could have been knocked off, shedding hair. Even a hoodie being up and then falling off might shed hair. A struggle could have ripped or shed fibers from the jacket, or other clothing. Having gone through the creek, anything shedding from one person to another likely stuck because of being wet. Jmo.

without gloves(?), his hands could be hairy and could have shed .... I personally have trouble imagining a much younger person planning out the extra clothing and disguise- did he study other crimes? it seems much more calculated than a random grab at victims, IMO.

 

[acutename]

I had another thought today when I was reading an article about VPNs. Is it possible that LE has texts or other digital information they think is from the killer but they cannot trace it to an IP address or to an identity?

 

[NatKingCola]

Is it true that some social media apps, such as Snapchat, allow location-sharing among “friends”, if the feature is activated by the user? I don’t think (could be wrong, zero experience) that it even necessarily requires a message to be sent to access one’s location? I’m not sure the time frame would have allowed for a scenario like this to play out or not.

But if they get access to a user’s phone after the fact, would that grant them the ability to who could have accessed this feature and when? Are other user’s information held private by these companies, or not in these circumstances? Or could the identity of those a user be easily masked by way of VPN or whatever other anonymous methods such as a burner phone purchased with cash, etc?

I do think it’s possible this was be a random encounter…being so difficult to solve, but I can’t help but wonder if all digital avenues have been exhausted or even able to be pursued due to privacy and technological challenges. I apologize if this has been discussed previously, genuinely curious and hoping every day for an arrest. MOO.

 

[carbuff]

That is the problem. Even a tear or a patch, how would that match up to the video? People overanalyze that video, but unfortunately the reality is that it is too pixelated and grainy to come to an identification of much of anything. People see all sorts of different types of hats and clothing in the video.

I understand the reality is that this person on the bridge could be anyone from any type of job who fits the general description of the person in the video(or one of the sketches assuming the sketches are based on good eyewitness statements).

Sometimes it is the small details that cause you to think you have found the answer. I know sometimes I am obsessed with the details. But there really is nothing there, because it could be a blue jacket or a blue windbreaker, one type of hat or another, one type of patch or another, one type of blue jean or another. Looking too closely at the details is why.

I wasn't thinking just of the video. I was thinking that they could have a patch of cloth, or even just threads, torn from the jacket either by one of the girls, or by catching on a tree branch or something like that. Maybe a button tore off. There are lots of possibilities besides the video.

 

[LunaInvidia]

Is it true that some social media apps, such as Snapchat, allow location-sharing among “friends”, if the feature is activated by the user? I don’t think (could be wrong, zero experience) that it even necessarily requires a message to be sent to access one’s location? I’m not sure the time frame would have allowed for a scenario like this to play out or not.

But if they get access to a user’s phone after the fact, would that grant them the ability to who could have accessed this feature and when? Are other user’s information held private by these companies, or not in these circumstances? Or could the identity of those a user be easily masked by way of VPN or whatever other anonymous methods such as a burner phone purchased with cash, etc?

I do think it’s possible this was be a random encounter…being so difficult to solve, but I can’t help but wonder if all digital avenues have been exhausted or even able to be pursued due to privacy and technological challenges. I apologize if this has been discussed previously, genuinely curious and hoping every day for an arrest. MOO.

Snapchat's location feature didn't exist at the time of the murders; it does now, but did not then.

 

[Imvp2]

Is it true that some social media apps, such as Snapchat, allow location-sharing among “friends”, if the feature is activated by the user? I don’t think (could be wrong, zero experience) that it even necessarily requires a message to be sent to access one’s location? I’m not sure the time frame would have allowed for a scenario like this to play out or not.

But if they get access to a user’s phone after the fact, would that grant them the ability to who could have accessed this feature and when? Are other user’s information held private by these companies, or not in these circumstances? Or could the identity of those a user be easily masked by way of VPN or whatever other anonymous methods such as a burner phone purchased with cash, etc?

I do think it’s possible this was be a random encounter…being so difficult to solve, but I can’t help but wonder if all digital avenues have been exhausted or even able to be pursued due to privacy and technological challenges. I apologize if this has been discussed previously, genuinely curious and hoping every day for an arrest. MOO.

Snapchat location sharing wasn't available in early 2017

 

[MistyWaters]

Snapchat's location feature didn't exist at the time of the murders; it does now, but did not then.

I’ve often wondered if LE was able to determine the identity of each of Libby’s snapchat friends. Because if the killer was local, the SC photo of the bridge effectively announced their location.

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

I’ve often wondered if LE was able to determine the identity of each of Libby’s snapchat friends. Because if the killer was local, the SC photo of the bridge effectively announced their location.

From experience I know a lot of police forces have difficulty understanding the forensic capabilities of services like Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook etc. The more established platforms like Gmail and iCloud have a fair amount of understanding, but particularly back in ~2017 local police forces likely didn't have the knowledge of what the social networks could provide them, and the timeframes and forms in which they would have to make a request.

This tends to be more the specialism of national/federal agencies like the FBI or the NCA in the UK, although some major metropolitan police forces (i.e. NY, London, LA, etc.) have in the last couple of years started to develop specialisms in this area. It's telling though that even in the UK today, it takes on average 6-12 months for the police to get a forensic deep-dive on a phone or laptop that belongs to a suspect in a serious crime.

 

[TL4S]

I’ve often wondered if LE was able to determine the identity of each of Libby’s snapchat friends. Because if the killer was local, the SC photo of the bridge effectively announced their location.

But as @Tiff23fr mentioned after the last HLN broadcast, if the SC bridge photo was posted at 2:07 and the BG video was taken at 2:13, that doesn't leave enough time for somebody to have gotten there from elsewhere outside the park. Considering it takes about 5 minutes for someone to walk across the bridge, that only leaves a minute or two for BG to have seen that SC photo before stepping onto the bridge.

However, imo, there is some question about timing if L posted or messaged people that they were planning to go, were on their way, or had just gotten to the trail. If they were dropped off around 1:30ish, that leaves close to a half-hour or more for someone to get there and catch up with them on the bridge. JMO.

 

[AC4RD]

.... back in ~2017 local police forces likely didn't have the knowledge of what the social networks could provide them, and the timeframes and forms in which they would have to make a request.

This tends to be more the specialism of national/federal agencies like the FBI or ...

Yes, but recall that the FBI was on the case by 2/15, weren't they? An FBI agent was on the search as a private citizen and informed the bureau about the case; they arrived quickly. I think they would certainly have known how to request information from the online services.

What police actually found about the girls' online activities is--like what the witnesses at the train on 2/13/17 told LE--something that we don't know and probably won't until after an arrest, I suspect.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, but recall that the FBI was on the case by 2/15, weren't they? An FBI agent was on the search as a private citizen and informed the bureau about the case; they arrived quickly. I think they would certainly have known how to request information from the online services.

What police actually found about the girls' online activities is--like what the witnesses at the train on 2/13/17 told LE--something that we don't know and probably won't until after an arrest, I suspect.

Yes, social media was first mentioned way back on Feb 16th, 2017.

BBM
CNN.com - Transcripts
CASAREZ: Sergeant, one last question before we go. Our producers estimated approximately 30 sex offenders in a 10-mile radius of Delphi.

Are you looking into that area?

RILEY: Yes, we are. We`re looking -- we`re looking at every angle. We`re looking at social media. We`re looking at sex offenders. We`re looking every direction we can to try to come up with that, some information on trying to catch these people that did this.

 

[ShamelessObserver]

The issue with what time the killer got to the scene is, based on 2019 PC, why was his car at the CPS building from 12:00 to 17:00

If the killer was cat fishing A&L, why would he have gone there before knowing they would also be there from 13:30??

What I think the reason is, is because the killer (as a local) knew it was a school holiday and by law of averages knew that schoolgirls would walk the trails that day. The fact A&L turned up is just a coincidence.

 

[TTF14]

The issue with what time the killer got to the scene is, based on 2019 PC, why was his car at the CPS building from 12:00 to 17:00

If the killer was cat fishing A&L, why would he have gone there before knowing they would also be there from 13:30??

What I think the reason is, is because the killer (as a local) knew it was a school holiday and by law of averages knew that schoolgirls would walk the trails that day. The fact A&L turned up is just a coincidence.

I'm not understanding how this precludes the killer(s) from being a catfish. He/they could have been informed that the girls would be there sometime within a window, whenever they could make it work.