Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #143

[margarita25]

Thinking out loud randomly about RV parks.

 

[gregjrichards]

They would be smart to get an injunction from a court to prevent its publication.

I’m very concerned about information regarding the investigation and interviews being revealed publicly that law enforcement do not want to be public knowledge yet. I understand that people are interested in knowing more about the case but not if it harms the investigation, harms the possibility of securing a solid conviction at trial or provides grounds for an appeal.

I’m sure most of us would agree that it is of paramount importance that the individual(s) involved in the murders of Abigail and Liberty are held accountable for what has been done to the girls and their families. This is the only point that matters in the case. I sincerely hope that getting justice is not being put in jeopardy for a podcast and YouTube views. It is morally wrong for anyone to publicly release information from legal documents, which have only been obtained due to an error made on a court website, relating to a criminal investigation and interviews related to it without the agreement and consent of law enforcement for you to do so.

 

[carbuff]

The courts might agree to suppress publication if the investigating officers or DA or somebody can convince the judge that the materials are indeed essential to the prosecution and the release was a mistake. That happened recently in another case I follow and the judge allowed at least some of the materials to be re-sealed.

 

[Deerrun]

They would be smart to get an injunction from a court to prevent its publication.

Murder Sheet contacted LE to let them know about the documents they downloaded when they were made public "accidently". They asked if there would be a problem if BM/KaK interview was released. LE did not have a problem with it according to Murder Sheet. I don't know about the next interview to be released but I would assume they asked LE about that too. They seem to be responsible podcasters. They said it is taking them awhile to release the next interview because it is long and they are making redactions to protect victim names etc. Moo

 

[gregjrichards]

Murder Sheet contacted LE to let them know about the documents they downloaded when they were made public "accidently". They asked if there would be a problem if BM/KaK interview was released. LE did not have a problem with it according to Murder Sheet. I don't know about the next interview to be released but I would assume they asked LE about that too. They seem to be responsible podcasters. They said it is taking them awhile to release the next interview because it is long and they are making redactions to protect victim names etc. Moo

Thank you for posting this Deerrun. I’m sorry everyone that I overreacted a bit with my earlier post. I don’t want to be unfair and critical to the podcasters, it just really concerned me that the investigation may potentially be harmed with information being released that should not have been. I just don’t want anything to make the case and hopefully a trial and getting a conviction any more difficult than it already is. If the information is properly redacted and law enforcement have no objections to it being released then it would alleviate my concerns.

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

Highly doubt it was deliberately leaked as the documents were only available for a short time window before being pulled down. Seems like a clerical error that Murder Sheet was able to exploit which allowed them to get access to court documents that were uploaded for discovery purposes and were mistakenly put on a public facing portal for the lawyers involved in KAK's trial.

As for the idea that a judge can issue an injunction to stop their publication, that sounds even less likely. Judges issue gag orders to stop trial participants from leaking information, not to stop media outlets who already have the information from reporting on it. The cat's already out of the bag so to speak in this case with the Murder Sheet already having downloaded the documents. If they were asking a clerk to send the docs to them that would be a different scenario but this is pretty much well within first amendment protected territory now since they already have them.

I hear you - but surely this activates the 6th Amendment also, the right to a fair trial. If primary evidence is leaked, and widely disseminated, then that evidence can't fairly be used, IMO. That the police gave the nod to Murder Sheet suggests to me that this information might not have any probatory value after-all, because if it did, they would be scrambling to stop its publication. Or, the possible suspects it concerns are either no longer suspects or no longer alive. JMO.

 

[mekeritrig]

I hear you - but surely this activates the 6th Amendment also, the right to a fair trial. If primary evidence is leaked, and widely disseminated, then that evidence can't fairly be used, IMO. That the police gave the nod to Murder Sheet suggests to me that this information might not have any probatory value after-all, because if it did, they would be scrambling to stop its publication. Or, the possible suspects it concerns are either no longer suspects or no longer alive. JMO.

This is the kind of question the Supreme Court answered several decades ago when they overruled a Nebraska judge that tried to preemptively limit the press from reporting on evidence such as a confession relating to the upcoming trial of a murder suspect in Nebraska Press Association v. Stuart (1976).

Here's a section of one of the concurrences which reversed the order which was limiting the press where it talks about how 6th amendment rights of the accused weigh 1st amendment rights of the press in this type of case.

The question presented in this case is whether, consistently with the First Amendment, a court may enjoin the press, in advance of publication, from reporting or commenting on information acquired from public court proceedings, public court records, or other sources about pending judicial proceedings. The Nebraska Supreme Court upheld such a direct prior restraint on the press, issued by the judge presiding over a sensational state murder trial, on the ground that there existed a “clear and present danger that pretrial publicity could substantially impair the right of the defendant [in the murder trial] to a trial by an impartial jury unless restraints were imposed.” The right to a fair trial by a jury of one’s peers is unquestionably one of the most precious and sacred safeguards enshrined in the Bill of Rights. I would hold, however, that resort to prior restraints on the freedom of the press is a constitutionally impermissible method for enforcing that right; judges have at their disposal a broad spectrum of devices for ensuring that fundamental fairness is accorded the accused without necessitating so drastic an incursion on the equally fundamental and salutary constitutional mandate that discussion of public affairs in a free society cannot depend on the preliminary grace of judicial censors.​

 

[Schatz]

Do we know if other missing teenagers have been looked at in relation to the Delphi case?

I found two who are 18 when they went missing (and arguably looked younger), who went missing in 2014 and 2016:

IN - IN - Karena McClerkin, 18, Kokomo, 11 Oct 2016

IN - IN - Marina Boelter, 18, Bloomfield, 31 December 2014

If you plot these on a map it looks like the central point is Indianapolis - about a 60-70 miles drive from each place where these girls were last seen, and Delphi.

I will not be surprised if the perp is also tied to the KM case.

 

[sunshineray]

Highly doubt it was deliberately leaked as the documents were only available for a short time window before being pulled down. Seems like a clerical error that Murder Sheet was able to exploit which allowed them to get access to court documents that were uploaded for discovery purposes and were mistakenly put on a public facing portal for the lawyers involved in KAK's trial.

As for the idea that a judge can issue an injunction to stop their publication, that sounds even less likely. Judges issue gag orders to stop trial participants from leaking information, not to stop media outlets who already have the information from reporting on it. The cat's already out of the bag so to speak in this case with the Murder Sheet already having downloaded the documents. If they were asking a clerk to send the docs to them that would be a different scenario but this is pretty much well within first amendment protected territory now since they already have them.

I guess if it had been a case of documents being stolen and leaked maybe a judge could, if LE petitioned it, block publishing? Being it looks like an error was made in uploading, I do believe the cats' out of the bag would apply.

This is like information overload after 5 years of nothing

 

[somequestions]

I was looking through the old press conferences on this case and five years ago today was when the families had a press conference asking for help in solving the case. Each time a new POI comes up it seems like police are close to solving the case. Then enough time passes and you wonder if they really are close to solving the case. In older cases I wonder if people thought the same thing.

 

[Deerrun]

Thank you for posting this Deerrun. I’m sorry everyone that I overreacted a bit with my earlier post. I don’t want to be unfair and critical to the podcasters, it just really concerned me that the investigation may potentially be harmed with information being released that should not have been. I just don’t want anything to make the case and hopefully a trial and getting a conviction any more difficult than it already is. If the information is properly redacted and law enforcement have no objections to it being released then it would alleviate my concerns.

I would share your reaction had I not known they informed LE. No need to be sorry, it is very emotional and I am sure no one wants anything to hurt the case, that is except BG

Just spreculating here but I feel LEs comment about "perpetual pressure" is not unfounded and this may be what we are seeing. At this point I feel the pressure and information coming out now is meant just as much for the family members of BG who may be protecting him or in serious denial. Denial keeps us safe until we are ready to see. Jmo, thinking out loud

 

[Prime8]

Thank you for posting this Deerrun. I’m sorry everyone that I overreacted a bit with my earlier post. I don’t want to be unfair and critical to the podcasters, it just really concerned me that the investigation may potentially be harmed with information being released that should not have been. I just don’t want anything to make the case and hopefully a trial and getting a conviction any more difficult than it already is. If the information is properly redacted and law enforcement have no objections to it being released then it would alleviate my concerns.

No need to apologize. I think that if the transcripts fell into the hands of less responsible people, it really could turn into a disaster.

 

[sunshineray]

I was looking through the old press conferences on this case and five years ago today was when the families had a press conference asking for help in solving the case. Each time a new POI comes up it seems like police are close to solving the case. Then enough time passes and you wonder if they really are close to solving the case. In older cases I wonder if people thought the same thing.

I remember in the Rhoden Family murders case, it was every theory out there being discussed with in the parameters of Sheriff Reader's TV interview where he said he thought the killers were locals. Then when they came out and said the "focus" was on the Wagner family it just all made sense. This, KAK and his Dad, still isn't feeling like that did...at least not to me...yet.

My curiosity is just going crazy with wanting to hear what LE asked and how, 194 pages of it! The question on page 4 of the KAK interview that asks about KG's phone...not LG's phone, having contact with KAK's phone the night the girl's were missing, that has me reeling.

Is it really possible that LE had the killer(s) so quickly but didn't see it?

 

[Prime8]

I remember in the Rhoden Family murders case, it was every theory out there being discussed with in the parameters of Sheriff Reader's TV interview where he said he thought the killers were locals. Then when they came out and said the "focus" was on the Wagner family it just all made sense. This, KAK and his Dad, still isn't feeling like that did...at least not to me...yet.

My curiosity is just going crazy with wanting to hear what LE asked and how, 194 pages of it! The question on page 4 of the KAK interview that asks about KG's phone...not LG's phone, having contact with KAK's phone the night the girl's were missing, that has me reeling.

Is it really possible that LE had the killer(s) so quickly but didn't see it?

I think the fact that they raided their house less than two weeks after the murder implies they knew it was a solid lead. Based on what I remember and what the public knows, I don't think there were that many warrants of this type issued early on.

They could have put them on the back burner because there wasn't really a lot of strong evidence and there were other leads to follow. But that 2019 presser, talking about "you thought we had gone a different direction" does speak to me. There's been a lot of rumors about a false alibi as well in the years since. KAK being charged could have changed the game for them.

 

[sandy_80]

if these two had anything to do with the case..they would have been identified by now and dealt with..even the leak sounds like having zero importance to le
the digital trace is what made them issue that warrant..just like they searched logans house and many others
FBI searches Peru home, finds no link to Delphi killings

 

[sunshineray]

I think the fact that they raided their house less than two weeks after the murder implies they knew it was a solid lead. Based on what I remember and what the public knows, I don't think there were that many warrants of this type issued early on.

They could have put them on the back burner because there wasn't really a lot of strong evidence and there were other leads to follow. But that 2019 presser, talking about "you thought we had gone a different direction" does speak to me. There's been a lot of rumors about a false alibi as well in the years since. KAK being charged could have changed the game for them.

I would agree with all that except one thing bugs the heck out of me. It was the iPhone4 that had the anthony_shots info on it, not the iPhone5 that he wiped to unrecoverable. Both of those phone's just scream, LOOK DEEPER. Then Libby's phone was factory wiped. Did the IT guys just totally mess up? idk

 

[sunshineray]

if these two had anything to do with the case..they would have been identified by now and dealt with..even the leak sounds like having zero importance to le
the digital trace is what made them issue that warrant..just like they searched logans house and many others
FBI searches Peru home, finds no link to Delphi killings

Didn't LE go as far as to tell people publicly to stop harassing/doxing those early search warrants people? Or was that just the Bicycle Bridge Rd ones?

 

[AC4RD]

"... resort to prior restraints on the freedom of the press is a constitutionally impermissible method ..."

Thank you for sharing that part of the decision! It's an incredibly important point IMO: if we allow prior restraints on the press at all, we have every possible criminal and civil proceeding afterwards, now possibly closed to public oversight, subject to pleading and influence from special interests. The USA's Founding Fathers thought freedom of the press and freedom of speech were important enough to embed them rock-solidly in the constitution. IMO we need NOT to start chipping at that rock foundation.

It may be true, as some fear, that the accidental leak was a grievous mistake by the prosecution team. It may even harm an eventual prosecution, though that remains an open point. But restraining the press from publishing in this case is just one of those "slippery slope" issues IMO. Allowing censorship before the fact is like when the well-meaning agriculturalists introduced kudzu to the American south. It started with a few small patches but it rapidly grew out of control. And it became terribly destructive--as censorship of the press might. IMO.

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

We have prior restraint in the UK; once somebody is charged for an offence there is a blanket ban on publishing any information that could be detrimental that person's - or the prosecutor's - case. It's an old principle that seems to work fine most of the time.

 

[Prime8]

I would agree with all that except one thing bugs the heck out of me. It was the iPhone4 that had the anthony_shots info on it, not the iPhone5 that he wiped to unrecoverable. Both of those phone's just scream, LOOK DEEPER. Then Libby's phone was factory wiped. Did the IT guys just totally mess up? idk

I'm not quite following.