IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[they'll get you]

If SA is completely innocent of anything other than total imbecilic stupidity and is beating himself up internally over this-- he should plead guilty to negligent homicide, take his 'lumps' (several months' jail sentence, a stiff fine, or whatever); and apologize profusely to her parents.
He still has a life.
Chloe was robbed of hers.

And Winkleman should (imo) be told to hit the road.
Maybe he already is.
This is a case I can't see him winning.

His bills will be enormous already.

Do you have lawyers who work for no win no fee over there and then get their slice from the compensation money.

 

[katydid23]

His bills will be enormous already.

Do you have lawyers who work for no win no fee over there and then get their slice from the compensation money.

You can find plenty of lawyers to help you sue someone else, and will represent you for no pay upfront, and a percentage on the back end.

But he needs someone to represent him against criminal charges---and it is hard to get a good attorney to do that for free. Although many public defenders are very good lawyers and very experienced. But they often lack resources needed to fight the DA.

 

[they'll get you]

Hello,
I'm a new member but I've been following this thread. Nice to meet you all!
I came across this story earlier:
(I apologize if someone already shared it)
Apparently one of the reporters from CBS was allowed to watch part of the video of the last moments before Chloe went overboard.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BMAF6BAgIEAc&usg=AOvVaw1n90HxCDuqV1AH0fDWMwRc

It won’t play for me in Aus. OK got it going with content blockers off.

 

[neesaki]

If SA is completely innocent of anything other than total imbecilic stupidity and is beating himself up internally over this-- he should plead guilty to negligent homicide, take his 'lumps' (several months' jail sentence, a stiff fine, or whatever); and apologize profusely to her parents.
He still has a life.
Chloe was robbed of hers.

And Winkleman should (imo) be told to hit the road.
Maybe he already is.
This is a case I can't see him winning.

Excellent points, Lietkynes, excellent. ITA

 

[al66pine]

Attorneys Fees in US.

His bills will be enormous already. Do you have lawyers who work for no win no fee over there and then get their slice from the compensation money.

. @they'll get you
This article discusses atty fees in US and other countries as well. More at link, but not much on atty fees in crim cases in U.S. I'll search a bit further on that.
"Attorney's fee is a chiefly United States term for compensation for legal services performed by an attorney (lawyer or law firm) for a client, in or out of court. It may be an hourly, flat-rate or contingent fee."
Attorney's fee - Wikipedia

{{ ETA: On atty's fees for crim cases, many online references give flat $ figures $1500 to $3000 to $5000 US re defending misdemeanors, e.g., DWI/drunk driving/minor assault chg's/shoplifting. No $ cited on homicide cases, but in news in other (non-PR) homicide cases, I've read of minimum retainers ranging from $50,000 to $250,000 US to start representation. I wonder if any PR attys would be accept homicide case and bill on a hourly basis.}}

 

[they'll get you]

The story has changed. What about earlier reports that SA picked Chloe up because she "asked to be picked up to BANG ON THE GLASS"? Parents of toddler who fell from cruise ship share ‘unfathomable’ grief
"They said her grandfather often did the same thing with her when they attended hockey games, letting her bang on the glass." (GMAFB, please...)
Lawyer Explains Toddler's Fall From Cruise Ship Window
"Chloe wanted to bang on the glass like she always did at her older brother's hockey games. Her grandfather thought there was glass just like everywhere else, but there was not, and she was gone in an instant."

I’m really really surprised there was only one window open along that side because EVERYONE has a look out and opens windows for picture, view and breeze.
Usually boarding starts mid morning and the ship sails approx. 6pm (in Sydney) and by 5 pm everyone has settled in.
It’s relevant to know how many cruises he’d been on before.

 

[neesaki]

At the beginning of this case in the now-deleted thread.... , SA was described as 'elderly' , 'old', and possibly 'onset dementia' (yes that was brought up )and even 'frail'.
Oh my goodness.
I believe he's what, 50 ? 51 ?

My parents are 80 and 81, and still very alert and active.
They keep busy and are enjoying life.

Lately not much has been said about SA's age.
But even at 50, he still has maybe 30 years left.

But not Chloe.
Just so senseless and sad.

Yes, sadly baby Chloe was robbed of her life. Her life, literally stolen, taken from her, before she even got started. And here we have CBS news and the attorney feeling sorry for and defending this step GP. As though he’s the victim. What about the rights of the true victim... Chloe.
SA should if anything, be throwing himself on the mercy of the court. The law suit against the cruise line needs to stop.

 

[they'll get you]

Wouldn't a plea deal negate their chances of winning the civil lawsuit? Winkleman is still representing the family and looking for a financial settlement from RCCL. If Grandpa pleads to a lesser degree of culpability, Royal Caribbean can't be held responsible. RCCL isn't responsible for SA's reckless behavior, but I think the family is determined to blame the cruise line and get Grandpa off the hook.

If those railings, windows and no signing are all within legal regulations I really doubt they can sue.
It’s govt. requirements and RCCL have abided.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

The story has changed. What about earlier reports that SA picked Chloe up because she "asked to be picked up to BANG ON THE GLASS"? Parents of toddler who fell from cruise ship share ‘unfathomable’ grief
"They said her grandfather often did the same thing with her when they attended hockey games, letting her bang on the glass." (GMAFB, please...)
Lawyer Explains Toddler's Fall From Cruise Ship Window
"Chloe wanted to bang on the glass like she always did at her older brother's hockey games. Her grandfather thought there was glass just like everywhere else, but there was not, and she was gone in an instant."

The ever-evolving saga continues MW is trying hard to back-pedal his earliest claims. Makes me wonder if he's seen the video and is worried about the legitimacy of the civil suit.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

If those railings, windows and no signing are all within legal regulations I really doubt they can sue.
It’s govt. requirements and RCCL have abided.

There are railings all over every cruise ship I've ever been on. The railings are a safety feature, and passengers with common sense know that the railings are not intended to support anyone sitting or standing on them.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

At the beginning of this case in the now-deleted thread.... , SA was described as 'elderly' , 'old', and possibly 'onset dementia' (yes that was brought up )and even 'frail'.
Oh my goodness.
I believe he's what, 50 ? 51 ?

My parents are 80 and 81, and still very alert and active.
They keep busy and are enjoying life.

Lately not much has been said about SA's age.
But even at 50, he still has maybe 30 years left.

But not Chloe.
Just so senseless and sad.

I think comments about SA being elderly, frail, etc. were intended to engender sympathy for him. At 50/51, he is NOT an old man! He doesn't look particularly "fit" and probably has some lifestyle habits that aren't in his best interest health wise. That said, SA is employed full time, so there isn't any type of mental deterioration that keeps him from working.

DH is 71, and I will be 70 in January. DH works Monday-Thursday and considers himself semi-retired. We are both in excellent health with no indication of deteriorating physical or mental capabilities. I'd be terribly offended if someone described me as "elderly" or "frail"

 

[MsBetsy]

If those railings, windows and no signing are all within legal regulations I really doubt they can sue.
It’s govt. requirements and RCCL have abided.

Have they actually filed the lawsuit or is the lawyer still just talking about it?
Is there a copy of it somewhere?

 

[oviedo]

Have they actually filed the lawsuit or is the lawyer still just talking about it?
Is there a copy of it somewhere?

@MsBetsy It has not been filed yet that I have found. I think all of this talk of the lawsuit was meant to deflect on the criminal aspect IMO. Of course, now that the video is out there, this may backfire on the attorney (civil) and the family. The criminal attorney will have likely required a large retainer IMO. SA might have had to raid his retirement account or get a loan to cover it perhaps? Time will tell of course.
JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

@MsBetsy It has not been filed yet that I have found. I think all of this talk of the lawsuit was meant to deflect on the criminal aspect IMO. Of course, now that the video is out there, this may backfire on the attorney (civil) and the family. The criminal attorney will have likely required a large retainer IMO. SA might have had to raid his retirement account or get a loan to cover it perhaps? Time will tell of course.
JMO

Thanks, that's what I was thinking. (That they were trying to take the focus off the grandfather.)
I bet they won't even go through with it.

Imo

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I'm curious about where other family members were at the time of the incident. The family group had likely only been on the ship for a few hours (IIRC, embarkation began at noon), so they probably hadn't seen much of the ship, let alone become acclimated to their surroundings. Why was Grandpa already looking after Chloe? Was SA asked to care for Chloe, or did he offer to look after her?

The CBS report suggests that Chloe was running towards the wall of windows and that Grandpa was following her. Chloe was probably pretty quick, while SA doesn't look like he can move very fast. How closely did he follow? What if Chloe had gotten so far away from Grandpa that he couldn't find her? Something wrong with these circumstances. In the replayed clip from the parents' Today Show interview, Chloe's mother makes a big deal about SA never, ever putting their children in danger. Methinks she protests too much!

 

[MsBetsy]

I'm curious about where other family members were at the time of the incident. The family group had likely only been on the ship for a few hours (IIRC, embarkation began at noon), so they probably hadn't seen much of the ship, let alone become acclimated to their surroundings. Why was Grandpa already looking after Chloe? Was SA asked to care for Chloe, or did he offer to look after her?

The CBS report suggests that Chloe was running towards the wall of windows and that Grandpa was following her. Chloe was probably pretty quick, while SA doesn't look like he can move very fast. How closely did he follow? What if Chloe had gotten so far away from Grandpa that he couldn't find her? Something wrong with these circumstances. In the replayed clip from the parents' Today Show interview, Chloe's mother makes a big deal about SA never, ever putting their children in danger. Methinks she protests too much!

I thought it was reported that the family was on the other side of the ship.

In the CBS report, they said they had viewed the video and the child went straight towards the windows and the grandfather was closely following all the way. It's not like he is old or disabled.

So it doesn't sound possible that she got lost.

I think the mother is supporting the grandfather because she cares about him and believes he has been attentive and loving towards his grandchild and now he feels responsible for what happened.

I don't think it implies that she's lying or that something nefarious was happening prior to the child falling.

The grandfather made a bad decision and in those few seconds it cost the family the child's life.

Imo

 

[al66pine]

G'father's atty speaks
Maybe yesterday I missed this article in Indanapolis Star, Nov 21. date.

Longer quotes there from him in link, besides this. "What I saw with the video, it's pretty consistent with what my client has told me," José G. Pérez Ortiz."

Video of toddler's fatal cruise ship fall may help decide grandfather's fate

 

[sl222]

I think the "elderly" references were all due to the use of the word grandfather and just the fast assumptions made when the media initially reported this story.

 

[sl222]

The reports said the mother was in "another part of the ship." Not too far away I don't think because it sounds like she got to the scene quickly.

 

[sl222]

It looks like in most photos that there are always several windows open. As I recall, the attorney made it sound like only one window was open (not sure on that). It's hard to imagine that only one of those windows was open at that point. There would be a lot of people in the area and using the nearby pool / water area, right?