IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[they'll get you]

Could they be held responsible for leaving Chloe with someone who wasn't capable of tending her? Maybe there is more here.

Like knowing someone has no licence and putting your child in their vehicle?
Yes I agree.

 

[al66pine]

Could they be held responsible for leaving Chloe with someone who wasn't capable of tending her? Maybe there is more here.

@mickey2942 . "More here" like --- what? Examples? Actual or hypothetical? TiA

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

How about knowing that Grandpa had been drinking but let him look after Chloe anyway so they could do something else? Or, Grandpa takes medication that causes drowsiness? Either of these would be cause for concern that someone is not capable of properly caring for a busy toddler.

 

[al66pine]

Parents' (Non) Responsibility?

The parents can’t be held responsible if they were on a different part of the ship.

@they'll get you
AFAIK parents' claim of being in different part of ship at time of Chloe's fall is the only info on that point, publicly released so far. So nothing ATM to either support or contradict parents' stmt. As always I could have missed something else.
I suspect cruiseliner' vids (possibly passengers' vids) shows parents' location at that moment.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Parents' (Non) Responsibility?


@they'll get you
AFAIK parents' claim of being in different part of ship at time of Chloe's fall is the only info on that point, publicly released so far. So nothing ATM to either support or contradict parents' stmt. As always I could have missed something else.
I suspect cruiseliner' vids (possibly passengers' vids) shows parents' location at that moment.

Early reports that I read/heard indicated that the parents and older brother had gone to the buffet. Windjammer (buffet) is located Deck 11 aft (stern) on Freedom of the Seas. SA was in the center of Deck 11 near H2O Zone with Chloe.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Perhaps even sooner - grandpa has said he thought he was putting Chloe against a window which was closed, and her parents seem to believe him. What if they find out the truth, which is that he knew the window was open and placed the child through the window? I think their anger will be overwhelming.

They’ll believe the videos were altered.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Like knowing someone has no licence and putting your child in their vehicle?
Yes I agree.

Not having license is not the issue. What if he just didn’t pay to renew it? That’s way different if licensed pulled bc of dui arrests.

 

[al66pine]

Locations of Parents and of Chloe & G'fther

Early reports that I read/heard indicated that the parents and older brother had gone to the buffet. Windjammer (buffet) is located Deck 11 aft (stern) on Freedom of the Seas. SA was in the center of Deck 11 near H2O Zone with Chloe.

@BetteDavisEyes bbm Thank you for your post, leading me to re-read posts & links.

BDE and other veteran cruisers.
We've seen many pix of lounge chairs next to 'glass wall' w window from/thru which Chloe fell.
Is it likely that ppl would describe [ed: like quote below] this area as a "dining hall?"
What would you call it?
{{{ETA: Or is it possible the pix were taken at the wrong location?}}}

"Port Authority spokesman Jose Carmona told CNN the girl was in the dining hall playing with her grandfather on deck 11 of the ship...when the tragedy occurred. Carmona said one window pane to the hall was open and Wiegand's grandfather sat the girl in the window. He lost his balance which caused Wiegand to fall. Carmona said, 'Sadly, she died on impact.' "
^ Chloe Wiegand: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com pub date July 8

 

[al66pine]

@they'll get you said:
"Like knowing someone has no licence and putting your child in their vehicle?
Yes I agree.'

Not having license is not the issue. What if he just didn’t pay to renew it? That’s way different if licensed pulled bc of dui arrests.

@Midwestmom2019 Yes, agreeing w ^ your post.
And some state laws allow a driver's license to be suspended/revoked for reasons unrelated to driving history/violations, like failure to pay child support. jmo

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Locations of Parents and of Chloe & G'fther
@BetteDavisEyes bbm Thank you for your post, leading me to re-read posts & links.

BDE and other veteran cruisers.
We've seen many pix of lounge chairs next to 'glass wall' w window from/thru which Chloe fell.
Is it likely that ppl would describe [ed: like quote below] this area as a "dining hall?"
What would you call it?
{{{ETA: Or is it possible the pix were taken at the wrong location?}}}...

I wouldn't call it a "dining hall" and don't recall anyone ever using that term. Most folks would call it the "buffet". Every cruise ship has a buffet for self-service breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks throughout the day. Buffets used to be open 24/7, and there was usually a "grand buffet" at midnight - a lavish spread with ice sculptures, fruit and vegetable carvings, chocolate waterfall. People lined up to take photos of the awesome food displays before the doors opened.

The buffet area has different stations for hot/cold foods, salad bar, breads, desserts, beverage and coffee station, etc. There might be an omelet station at breakfast with crew members making omelets or eggs to order. At lunch and dinner, there might be a carving station or deli. There is indoor seating as well as tables/chairs outside on the deck.

Most shipboard buffets are no longer open 24/7, and the midnight buffet is long gone. They open fairly early in the morning but usually close @11:00PM.

If Grandpa and Chloe were in the buffet area, why does the lawyer and family insist that the open window was in a children's play area?

 

[oviedo]

The Windjammer is enclosed IMO with doors separating it from the pool deck - I would not describe the pool deck as a dining hall - I think the spokesman got it wrong - Chloe was in the pool deck section based on the photos posed in thread #1
JMO

 

[al66pine]

dbm

 

[al66pine]

The Windjammer is enclosed IMO with doors separating it from the pool deck - I would not describe the pool deck as a dining hall - I think the spokesman got it wrong - Chloe was in the pool deck section based on the photos posed in thread #1 JMO

. @oviedo Thanks for your post. Agreeing that spokesman got it wrong.

Not sure if I would call it 'pool deck section' (but far more accurate than 'dining hall'). See deck plan.*
The glass wall area w rows of lounge chairs seems to be distinct from pool & pool deck imo.
Between lounge chairs area and H2O Zone is a wide walkway, allowing passage from bow to stern, on each side of ship. Hard to tell from the 2-D deck plans, easier to see in vids.

IIRC from a passenger's vid tour, someone in any of 3 restaurants or bar (aft) walking to spa/fitness center (at stern) has to walk on one of those two walkways/passageways, either port or starboard. Well, unless passenger walks thru H2O Zone itself, w/ sprinklers, fountains, water-splashing gizmos, but doubt many want to do that.
^ That's the way I understand/recall the vids and deck plan* but could be wrong and will defer to observations of our veteran cruisers here.

---------------------------
* Deck Plans | Freedom of the Seas | Royal Caribbean Cruises

 

[borndem]

Chloe's Parents & PR Justice Dept, Quotes from Daily Mail, July 11 &12

(1)" The couple had met with Justice Department officials on Tuesday and similarly refused to give witness statements, claiming they were on a different part of the ship when Chloe fell and didn't see anything...."
^ By parents saying ^ seems imo like they made stmts to LE/Justice Dept. JD can say that's not a 'witness stmt' but regardless it is evidence, could be used at SA's trial imo.
If for ex, a vid surfaces, showing both parents a few feet from SA and Chloe & facing them a few seconds or minute before the fall, well, then, um, uh, yasee, well, er.
If that was to happen, pretty strong evd of the lack of credibility of parents.
Ditto, if a passenger made stmt to same effect - parents were a few steps away. Parents' cred? Low.
For ship board employee saying same, but may be viewed w suspicion of possible bias.

(2) "DailyMail.com can reveal they were also then given the opportunity to view a 'high quality' video of their daughter's final moments captured from an onboard camera - but were too distraught to watch."
^ By parents saying ^ also making a stmt. A totally understandable one.

(3) 'The family were asked to come to the Justice Department to talk about what happened but they decided not to since their lawyer had told them not to,' said Justice Department spokesman Kelvin Carrasco."
Also making a statement of sorts.
I'm not criticizing them from a legal angle, for exercising right to silence.

(4) '" The investigation is going to keep going. Maybe they will be asked to come again.'
"The Weigands have retained criminal attorneys in San Juan who have thus far declined to speak to the media." bbm
^ imo, clearly had not ruled out charging parents, at least at that time. Still possible, but I'm not saying likely.
all jmo. ^from https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...falling-arms-cruise-ship-arrives-Chicago.html pub date July 11 & 12

ribm
Criminal attorneys. Hmmm. Just for the grandfather, or for all three of them? If for all three, it's a Hmmm. But with an attorney in the family, it probably would be regarded as the smart thing to do.
What a mess. And a tragedy for all involved -- both sides.

 

[borndem]

The parents can’t be held responsible if they were on a different part of the ship.

Well, if they knew he was clumsy or absent-minded or had impaired vision, or couldn't move quickly, or had restricted movement of his arms/legs/back/or upper-body or was taking required medication or, or, or, it might affect their liability WRT carelessness or something similar.
No disrespect intended to the grandfather in these statements.
Just thinking aloud...

 

[LietKynes]

Some more msm links :

FOX59 News - Posts
Some interesting comments.

New details emerge in Baby Chloe’s cruise ship death | WTVR.com

Winkleman said he was retained by the family on Monday to “set the record straight.” As he describes it, the toddler’s tragic death is unlike many of the original reports circling the internet.
Winkleman said, “You have a wall of windows with one hidden hole.”
No alcohol was involved, added Winkleman.
“I think Royal Caribbean needs to answer these questions: Why would you ever in a kid’s play area put windows that passengers can open? “In my view in incidents like this, the video is always key,” he said.
Emph. mine

I have to say that in the bolded portion I completely agree with the Wiegand's lawyer.

Pete Buttigieg on Twitter: "We are saddened by the terrible accident that took the life of Officer Wiegand’s young daughter, and the city is holding this family in our hearts.… https://t.co/LtqU0nqU16"

Another view of the "wall of windows", notice that the ones that can be opened are at or above chest height :
In the direct middle of the photo, you can see a persons' neck and shoulders who is standing next to the window.
Hardly toddler height.

And at the far left of the photo is what appears to be a woman with a white blouse and pants, standing and holding a drink.
This is a lounge area and not a children's play place.

And the area near the windows is elevated slightly with a step or two going up.

Nowhere near the children's splash area.

Hard to believe this lawyer thinks he has a valid case.

 

[LietKynes]

Well, if they knew he was clumsy or absent-minded or had impaired vision, or couldn't move quickly, or had restricted movement of his arms/legs/back/or upper-body or was taking required medication or, or, or, it might affect their liability WRT carelessness or something similar.
No disrespect intended to the grandfather in these statements.
Just thinking aloud...

LBM
Ita.

It might also affect their lawsuit.

 

[LietKynes]

If Grandpa and Chloe were in the buffet area, why does the lawyer and family insist that the open window was in a children's play area?

snipped for focus
lbm

Good question.

 

[al66pine]

USER=55858]@borndem[/USER] bbm Thx for your post 34.
You asked: Criminal attorneys, "Just for the grandfather, or for all three of them?

Early July DM article said "...the Weigands have retained criminal attorneys in San Juan..." *
G'father is not a Weigand, so seems ^ sentence does not apply to him.
But other sentences in same article state G'father was accompanied by a crim atty from San Juan when he was at appt at Ministry of Justice.**

So per that article, parents had retained crim attys for themselves, and G'father had also retained crim atty for himself, before they left PR.
And clearly parents had already retained Winkleman atty in US re civil suit.

-------------------------------------------------------------
* "The Weigands have retained criminal attorneys in San Juan who have thus far declined to speak to the media." bbm
** "Anello.... attended a pre-arranged appointment on Wednesday at the island's Ministry of Justice accompanied by a criminal attorney from San Juan.
But an official from the justice department told DailyMail.com that, on the advice of his lawyer, the elderly IT worker from Valparaiso, Indiana, left the ministry later that day without giving an official statement."
^ from https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...falling-arms-cruise-ship-arrives-Chicago.html pub date July 11 & 12

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

snipped for focus
lbm

Good question.

Winkleman continuously describes "a wall of windows" and suggests that a portion of the wall had a "hole". This is a crude and erroneous remark that makes it sound like a major construction flaw rather than an open window. If there was a "wall of windows", why couldn't Chloe have banged on any of the windows, the lower ones in particular? Why did Grandpa happen to lift Chloe up to the only open window? Winkleman can spin this any way he wants, but he will never convince me that Grandpa thought there was glass there.