IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[al66pine]

Terminology: "Wall of Windows" or "Glass Wall" "Hole"? G'father's Senses?

Winkleman continuously describes "a wall of windows" and suggests that a portion of the wall had a "hole". This is a crude and erroneous remark that makes it sound like a major construction flaw rather than an open window....

@BetteDavisEyes bbm sbm Thanks for post pointing this out.
Yes, Winkleman's "Wall of Windows" reference places emphasis on Wall, rather than on Window.
Assumes --
--- All fixed glass in frames.
--- no operable (opening/closing) windows.
So open window is a "hole" completely unexpected, not immediately perceptible by person approaching, according to atty's argument. IIRC, he said there should be notices or warning signs there.

But even if a passenger (G'father?) thinks of it the same way as Winkleman (claims), expecting fixed glass only, when G'father steps in front of that particular spot, seems he is likely to ---
--- See objects/landscape are slightly different colors than thru adjacent tinted glass.
--- Feel the breeze or slight air movement.
--- Hear sounds, such as people on dock, machinery loading luggage & supplies, etc., more loudly.
--- Smell salt air or gas exhaust from ^ machinery.

Did G'father's four types of sensory receptors not absorb any of these, not relay to his brain?
Even if his hearing and/or vision was somewhat impaired, seems the other senses would have alerted him to the open window.
Or was he just oblivious, using poor judgment?
{ETA: Or was he impaired by alcohol, Rx, OTC, or other drugs.
Or does he have a med condition, causing falls, or balance problems? Neuropathy?}
IDK, jmo

 

[IceIce9]

So many times, the simplest answer turns out to be correct.

I think he was playing a game with her, knowingly held her out the open window, and then she fell from his grasp.

Probably it was “an act of games” as was first reported.

The reason he accidentally dropped her? Either she was so terrified that she she struggled violently or somehow he lost his grip on her.


I am certain the video clearly shows what happened, and that grandpa was at fault, or they wouldn’t have arrested him.


All my opinion.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

So many times, the simplest answer turns out to be correct.

I think he was playing a game with her, knowingly held her out the open window, and then she fell from his grasp.

Probably it was “an act of games” as was first reported.

The reason he accidentally dropped her? Either she was so terrified that she she struggled violently or somehow he lost his grip on her.


I am certain the video clearly shows what happened, and that grandpa was at fault, or they wouldn’t have arrested him.


All my opinion.

What, exactly, is "an act of games"? I'm nearly 70, well-educated, but have never heard the term.

 

[IceIce9]

Double post

 

[IceIce9]

Double post (WS acting wonky for me today)

 

[IceIce9]

What, exactly, is "an act of games"? I'm nearly 70, well-educated, but have never heard the term.

That was the phrase used in the first report from authorities. I am guessing they meant some like the “scare the child” game like “I’m gonna drop you!!” like some adults play at times.

“An act of games” seemed to be how it was phrased by someone who spoke English as a second language.

 

[IceIce9]

Here is an article that mentions “an act of games”

Elmer Román, of the local Department of Public Security, said: “Police have now launched an investigation and are trawling CCTV of the ship.

“At this time (the Division of) Homicide is in place. It has not been possible to interview the family.

“It is a very strong scene, very sad and tragic.

“At one point, one of her grandparents… in an act of games, exposes the girl to the void and falls out of his hands.”

 

[al66pine]

"Act of Games"? Meaning?

That was the phrase used in the first report from authorities. I am guessing they meant some like the “scare the child” game like “I’m gonna drop you!!” like some adults play at times.
“An act of games” seemed to be how it was phrased by someone who spoke English as a second language.

. @IceIce9 Agreeing w your post, re general meaning of "act of games" phrase.
And sounds like a phrase of ESL speaker. Or maybe a phrase by translation software.

@BetteDavisEyes A literal translation, but sounding stilted to native English speakers.
Act = a movement, action, or step.
Games = a form of play for fun or amusement.

Was this for Chloe's amusement? Being lifted up or rocked up. Whee.
Or for G'father's amusement? Like above, scare the child like I'm gonna drop you.

I'm trying to imagine how it happened.
G'father holding toddler at chest/shoulder level, and rocking her, first just toward window, back to holding her against him, then w her face out window, back to holding her against him, then further out the window (perhaps to her waist?), then tragedy.
Or maybe not like that at all. IDK.
jmo.

 

[LietKynes]

Wish that lawyer, MW, would just realize the truth and decline to represent the parents in their lawsuit.
He can't be that stupid.

 

[oviedo]

So many times, the simplest answer turns out to be correct.

I think he was playing a game with her, knowingly held her out the open window, and then she fell from his grasp.

Probably it was “an act of games” as was first reported.

The reason he accidentally dropped her? Either she was so terrified that she she struggled violently or somehow he lost his grip on her.


I am certain the video clearly shows what happened, and that grandpa was at fault, or they wouldn’t have arrested him.


All my opinion.

I've been thinking about the "slipped from his grasp" possibility - I'm wondering if she had sunscreen on and was dropped because of this - couldn't maintain his grip even if he was holding her out the window - sunblock can be very slick IMO.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I've been thinking about the "slipped from his grasp" possibility - I'm wondering if she had sunscreen on and was dropped because of this - couldn't maintain his grip even if he was holding her out the window - sunblock can be very slick IMO.

Yep. Said that long time ago. Humidity, heat, sweat, sunscreen, perfect problem. Maybe tried catching her by her sundress or other clothes and the fabric ripped away.

 

[borndem]

USER=55858]@borndem[/USER] bbm Thx for your post 34.
You asked: Criminal attorneys, "Just for the grandfather, or for all three of them?

Early July DM article said "...the Weigands have retained criminal attorneys in San Juan..." *
G'father is not a Weigand, so seems ^ sentence does not apply to him.
But other sentences in same article state G'father was accompanied by a crim atty from San Juan when he was at appt at Ministry of Justice.**

So per that article, parents had retained crim attys for themselves, and G'father had also retained crim atty for himself, before they left PR.
And clearly parents had already retained Winkleman atty in US re civil suit.

-------------------------------------------------------------
* "The Weigands have retained criminal attorneys in San Juan who have thus far declined to speak to the media." bbm
** "Anello.... attended a pre-arranged appointment on Wednesday at the island's Ministry of Justice accompanied by a criminal attorney from San Juan.
But an official from the justice department told DailyMail.com that, on the advice of his lawyer, the elderly IT worker from Valparaiso, Indiana, left the ministry later that day without giving an official statement."
^ from https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...falling-arms-cruise-ship-arrives-Chicago.html pub date July 11 & 12

Thanks for setting me straight, @al66pine, on that and refreshing my sometimes creaky-brained memory.
I guess a person or business, etc., just can't have too many attorneys...
All attorneys involved may be busy for a while. If they all go into a room and settle this thing, will we ever know the outcome or will it be one of those "undisclosed terms of agreement" or whatever it is called?
Again, what a sad, sad mess.

 

[borndem]

Wish that lawyer, MW, would just realize the truth and decline to represent the parents in their lawsuit.
He can't be that stupid.

Maybe their attorney is a friend of the family, and/or perhaps the attorney is known to have special expertise and success at this type of litigation, etc. Maybe the GF's attorney advised them to hire one.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Not having license is not the issue. What if he just didn’t pay to renew it? That’s way different if licensed pulled bc of dui arrests.

Wish that lawyer, MW, would just realize the truth and decline to represent the parents in their lawsuit.
He can't be that stupid.

There seems to be an abundance of stupid in and around this case.

 

[neesaki]

"Act of Games"? Meaning?
. @IceIce9 Agreeing w your post, re general meaning of "act of games" phrase.
And sounds like a phrase of ESL speaker. Or maybe a phrase by translation software.

@BetteDavisEyes A literal translation, but sounding stilted to native English speakers.
Act = a movement, action, or step.
Games = a form of play for fun or amusement.

Was this for Chloe's amusement? Being lifted up or rocked up. Whee.
Or for G'father's amusement? Like above, scare the child like I'm gonna drop you.

I'm trying to imagine how it happened.
G'father holding toddler at chest/shoulder level, and rocking her, first just toward window, back to holding her against him, then w her face out window, back to holding her against him, then further out the window (perhaps to her waist?), then tragedy.
Or maybe not like that at all. IDK.
jmo.

The problem with this game, this man seriously broke the rules. The rules are, IF you play this game... not that I’ve ever played it, I haven’t.... you only play it in a very, very safe place.... one in which you never, ever jeopardize the safety of the child.

I’m quite sure that playing this “game” in this case, I.e., holding the baby out a window 150 feet above the concrete platform, would never qualify as a game. It does however, qualify as child abuse and child endangerment ..... and negligent homicide. Truly unbelievable.

 

[neesaki]

There seems to be an abundance of stupid in and around this case.

I know.... I’m beginning to think he’s primarily doing it for the publicity. He’s a publicity hound, he wants the notoriety, the attention, his name recognized. And he could care less if he’s seen as the bad guy. JMO

 

[al66pine]

Who Had/Has Crim Attys in Early July?

Thanks for setting me straight, @al66pine, on that and refreshing my sometimes creaky-brained memory.
I guess a person or business, etc., just can't have too many attorneys...
All attorneys involved may be busy for a while.... Again, what a sad, sad mess.

@borndem sbm Thanks for your post.
But no, I did not intend or try to "set you straight." My apologies if it came off like that.
You asked a very good question. Pls re-read my post, which was just saying (or trying to say) per that DailyMail article in early July, parents had engaged crim atty's for themselves, and G'father had done same for himself.
I'd hesitate to put any money on that being 100% factually accurate. Believe me, I re-read the DM article itself several times, to try to figure out what was what. And other MSM articles as well.
In that situation, plenty of room for mis-translation between Spanish & English, and for mis-interp. between everyday American English and legal-talk American English. And plain old human mis-communication.

One thing, I agree 100% w you and (virtually?) everyone here: It is a sad, sad mess.

 

[borndem]

Who Had/Has Crim Attys in Early July?

@borndem sbm Thanks for your post.
But no, I did not intend or try to "set you straight." My apologies if it came off like that.
You asked a very good question. Pls re-read my post, which was just saying (or trying to say) per that DailyMail article in early July, parents had engaged crim atty's for themselves, and G'father had done same for himself.
I'd hesitate to put any money on that being 100% factually accurate. Believe me, I re-read the DM article itself several times, to try to figure out what was what. And other MSM articles as well.
In that situation, plenty of room for mis-translation between Spanish & English, and for mis-interp. between everyday American English and legal-talk American English. And plain old human mis-communication.

One thing, I agree 100% w you and (virtually?) everyone here: It is a sad, sad mess.

@al66pine, you certainly didn't come off in any way except to help me remember what I had forgotten! All those lawyers, who had hired them, and my memory gets shorter and shorter as I try to keep up with threads I am following! Your post was a big help to reel me back in from reeling around in outer spazz.

I will say that in the midst of all these lawyering-ups, and "we said/they said" arguments from both sides of these lawsuits (not us here in WS, please know), I suddenly got very sad and a bit angry with all of 'em -- it seems that some of those folks seem to have forgotten about this little girl gone.

Keep up with your good posts!

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I know.... I’m beginning to think he’s primarily doing it for the publicity. He’s a publicity hound, he wants the notoriety, the attention, his name recognized. And he could care less if he’s seen as the bad guy. JMO

He’s only seen as the bad guy by people who don’t need his legal help. To those people who need a lawyer to sue a cruise ship, he’s an answer to their prayers. And a GREAT guy.

 

[katydid23]

Winkleman continuously describes "a wall of windows" and suggests that a portion of the wall had a "hole". This is a crude and erroneous remark that makes it sound like a major construction flaw rather than an open window. If there was a "wall of windows", why couldn't Chloe have banged on any of the windows, the lower ones in particular? Why did Grandpa happen to lift Chloe up to the only open window? Winkleman can spin this any way he wants, but he will never convince me that Grandpa thought there was glass there.

And even if there was glass there --which there wasn't---even if there was, WHY would you place a tiny child up against it, to supposedly pound on it? ThaT sounds pretty negligent and dangerous as well. JMO