IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[MsMarple]

IMO they’ve poked a beast and they’ll be ‘fighting’ all cruise lines worldwide as they must all conform to legal heights and requirements.
Is it CLIA (cruise lines international association) Cruise Industry Regulation who sets these legal heights etc?
They’ll be entering into the argument as they set these standards of safety.

Cruise Industry Regulation
The cruise industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries with robust, clearly defined standards. The average ship undergoes dozens of announced and unannounced safety inspections per year, involving hundreds of man-hours and the implementation of thousands of specific requirements set by the International Maritime Organization (IMO) and other authorities.

ITA! IMO RCCL could not have foreseen that someone would break ship safety policy and stand a child up on a rail next to an open window, let alone hold her out an open window or dangle her out an open window if that actually happened, anymore than they could foresee someone falling from a balcony.

If the parents were to win the civil suit what would happen? If RCCL was found responsible for carelessly allowing windows at nearly chest height to be opened, knowing that someone could do something stupid and fall out then I imagine they would have to ground all ships, kind of like the issue with the Boeing 737 Max planes.

And I don't see that happening. No matter how I look at it the grandfather was the one who should have foreseen injury to Chloe, not the ship. MOO.

 

[they'll get you]

ITA! IMO RCCL could not have foreseen that someone would break ship safety policy and stand a child up on a rail next to an open window, let alone hold her out an open window or dangle her out an open window if that actually happened, anymore than they could foresee someone falling from a balcony.

If the parents were to win the civil suit what would happen? If RCCL was found responsible for carelessly allowing windows at nearly chest height to be opened, knowing that someone could do something stupid and fall out then I imagine they would have to ground all ships, kind of like the issue with the Boeing 737 Max planes.

And I don't see that happening. No matter how I look at it the grandfather was the one who should have foreseen injury to Chloe, not the ship. MOO.

It’s is well known on board that you don’t throw anything overboard. NOTHING.
I get scared if I’m leaning on my balcony railing with a coffee cup in case I drop it and it’s seen on CCTV.

I just can’t wrap my head around this stupidity.

 

[book-thinker]

But what if this had been a nanny / baby sitter caring for Chloe. Are you saying then that there are no consequences of negligent acts that cause the death of tiny children by adult caregivers ? TIA
How can there be no legal repercussions for such a heinous act against a helpless little child ?

nee saki thank you for your post. I want to explain my thoughts about no winner in this case.

Yes legal repercussions should be in place. It doesn't matter if the person watching the child was a nanny/babysitter
or grandfather. My concern is for Chloe's family. Testifying against your own father, the parents reliving the horror. Sitting in the courtroom listening to what happened that afternoon. The grandfather will live the rest of his living knowing he is responsible for her death.

As Kittybunny stated I'm also chiming in here super late. A earlier post presents a different story.

Does the video show more than a grandfather holding a toddler on a wooden rail.
If I'm understanding right the grandfather was exposing her through the window on the 11th floor of the boat..This is more than a accident.
IMO I understand the charge negligent homicide. He dangled her out the 11th floor window. She wasn't just looking out a window. What was he thinking! Did he not think of the consequences to his actions. A small toddler would fall to her death. So there was no intent to harm the child but he dangled her out a window. I would call this more than
negligent homicide. This is a heart breaking case!

 

[they'll get you]

When my daughter at 2 yrs threw a full-blown tantrum there were times I had to put her down as I could’ve dropped her.
If Chloé got frightened at that height I’m saying he would not have been able to hold her.

The more I think about this the angrier I get...I hope the parents are starting to see reality.

 

[al66pine]

Foreseeable? And a Hypothetical Question.

ITA! IMO RCCL could not have foreseen that someone would break ship safety policy and stand a child up on a rail next to an open window, let alone hold her out an open window or dangle her out an open window if that actually happened,....No matter how I look at it the grandfather was the one who should have foreseen injury to Chloe, not the ship. MOO.

@MsMarple

sbm bbm Agreeing & disagreeing w you.
If we rewind the design process back far enough, virtually any purported 'accident' is foreseeable.

At Mall of America in April, when stranger grabbed 5 y/o and threw him over railing, down ~ 3 levels, was that foreseeable to architect et al that someone might do that? Of course, that's foreseeable. But foreseeability does not mean that designer/creator/architect et al have a duty to prevent all such foreseeable possible events such as these because these events are not accidents. They result from someone deliberately taking an action that causes someone else harm/injury/death.

Hypothetically if we assume for sake of discussion, that we've all seen hypo video on the ship clearly showing an adult man extending his hand to throw a gum wrapper thru a window (IOW, he knows the window is open), should he be expected to use a scintilla of care, even the tiniest bit, in choosing where to sit the toddler? Can we as a society or jury task him w foreseeability of his own actions?
Does he need an architect's education & experience to prevent tragedy? No, all he needs is a basic grasp of gravity, which as a person who survived to adulthood, he presumably has.

Even if the window was not open, bad enough that an adult would sit a toddler on chest-high railing and fail to hold her securely enough to prevent a fall of ~ 36 - 42 - 48 inches to the floor. But multiple stories/decks, 100+foot drop?!?

{{Foreseeability of gravity? After boarding a cruiseliner, standing on Deck 11, does an adult w toddler in arms say to self, "Oh, here in Puerto Rico, I think gravity is not nearly as strong as in back in Indiana. I imagine sometimes they just turn it off all together, so probably does not apply here while we're on vacation. Sit her on railing? Okay."
/sarc, mos-def.}}

…………G’father’s actions
+………gravity
= ……..100% foreseeable to G’father, that potentially causes harm/injury/death to Chloe

^ jmo, could be wrong.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Downcast grandfather who 'dropped toddler 150ft to her death' on Royal Caribbean ship leaves his first court appearance in Puerto Rico facing three years in prison if found guilty of negligent homicide

“The court heard that 'several' eyewitnesses, including two from overseas, will be asked to describe what they saw in the moments before 18-month-old Chloe plunged 150ft on to a concrete dock this summer.”

Grandfather who 'dropped toddler 150ft to her death' on cruise ship arrives at court in Puerto Rico | Daily Mail Online

 

[book-thinker]

When my daughter at 2 yrs threw a full-blown tantrum there were times I had to put her down as I could’ve dropped her.
If Chloé got frightened at the height I’m saying he would not have been able to hold her.

The more I think about this the angrier I get...I hope the parents are starting to see reality.

I'm feeling the same way.

 

[al66pine]

Who Is Likely to Testify? Impact on Chloe's Parents?

....Yes legal repercussions should be in place. It doesn't matter if the person watching the child was a nanny/babysitter or grandfather. My concern is for Chloe's family. Testifying against your own father, the parents reliving the horror. Sitting in the courtroom listening to what happened that afternoon. ... This is a heart breaking case!

@book-thinker bbm sbm Respectfully, I'm thinking of a couple points differently from you.
1) Yes, Chloe's parents will/may be asked to testify in PR v. G'father Anello, but I doubt prosecutor will drill them w questions, trying to lead them into actually blaming G'father, testifying against him.
2) If the defendant was not G'father, but instead ----
(a) nanny hired from an Indiana agency & accompanying them on trip, or
(b) babysitter-for-hire, as one of the cruiseliner by-the-hour amenities (I'm struggling w terminology here. Anyone feel free to jump in to correct or clarify), or
(c) their regular babysitter/nanny/au-pair/girl-next-door accompanying them on trip,
would it be any easier for Chloe's parents, sitting in courtroom listening? IDK, but doubt it.

Regardless of ^, I gotta agree w you, a heart breaking case.

 

[they'll get you]

Foreseeable? And a Hypothetical Question.
@MsMarple View attachment 216598 sbm bbm Agreeing & disagreeing w you.
If we rewind the design process back far enough, virtually any purported 'accident' is foreseeable.

At Mall of America in April, when stranger grabbed 5 y/o and threw him over railing, down ~ 3 levels, was that foreseeable to architect et al that someone might do that? Of course, that's foreseeable. But foreseeability does not mean that designer/creator/architect et al have a duty to prevent all such foreseeable possible events such as these because these events are not accidents. They result from someone deliberately taking an action that causes someone else harm/injury/death.

Hypothetically if we assume for sake of discussion, that we've all seen hypo video on the ship clearly showing an adult man extending his hand to throw a gum wrapper thru a window (IOW, he knows the window is open), should he be expected to use a scintilla of care, even the tiniest bit, in choosing where to sit the toddler? Can we as a society or jury task him w foreseeability of his own actions?
Does he need an architect's education & experience to prevent tragedy? No, all he needs is a basic grasp of gravity, which as a person who survived to adulthood, he presumably has.

Even if the window was not open, bad enough that an adult would sit a toddler on chest-high railing and fail to hold her securely enough to prevent a fall of ~ 36 - 42 - 48 inches to the floor. But multiple stories/decks, 100+foot drop?!?

{{Foreseeability of gravity? After boarding a cruiseliner, standing on Deck 11, does an adult w toddler in arms say to self, "Oh, here in Puerto Rico, I think gravity is not nearly as strong as in back in Indiana. I imagine sometimes they just turn it off all together, so probably does not apply here while we're on vacation. Sit her on railing? Okay."
/sarc, mos-def.}}

…………G’father’s actions
+………gravity
= ……..100% foreseeable to G’father, that potentially causes harm/injury/death to Chloe

^ jmo, could be wrong.

Great post al66pine it made a lot of sense.

On my vehicle’s GPS there is a warning message saying something like - stay in control and don’t depend on the vehicle to do the driving.
The reason for this message was that some knucklehead driving a camper set the GPS and then walked into the back to make a cuppa, well we know the outcome there.

So every GPS has that warning because ‘stupid’ won.
They didn’t ban GPS but put warnings up...will this happen with the windows, just in case ‘stupid’ is on board.


But now we have driverless cars.

 

[they'll get you]

Downcast grandfather who 'dropped toddler 150ft to her death' on Royal Caribbean ship leaves his first court appearance in Puerto Rico facing three years in prison if found guilty of negligent homicide

“The court heard that 'several' eyewitnesses, including two from overseas, will be asked to describe what they saw in the moments before 18-month-old Chloe plunged 150ft on to a concrete dock this summer.”

Grandfather who 'dropped toddler 150ft to her death' on cruise ship arrives at court in Puerto Rico | Daily Mail Online

• Chloe's parents Alan and Kimberly Weigand did not accompany Anello to court but they have been steadfast in their support for the maternal grandfather.

 

[MsFacetious]

Downcast grandfather who 'dropped toddler 150ft to her death' on Royal Caribbean ship leaves his first court appearance in Puerto Rico facing three years in prison if found guilty of negligent homicide

“The court heard that 'several' eyewitnesses, including two from overseas, will be asked to describe what they saw in the moments before 18-month-old Chloe plunged 150ft on to a concrete dock this summer.”

Grandfather who 'dropped toddler 150ft to her death' on cruise ship arrives at court in Puerto Rico | Daily Mail Online

Before? What did they see before he dropped her? Wow....

 

[Catmommy]

PawPaw had the responsibility as The Adult In Charge of the Baby. The little girl was entrusted to his CARE. That means that the one in charge of the baby, the Grandfather had to take particular caution since the child was too young to know what was dangerous and what wasn't. He did not. The baby died. It's his fault. Three years in prison won't ease his mind ever but he IS responsible for a child's death and it would NOT have happened except for his actions.

 

[al66pine]

Daily Mail Phrasing: "Elderly" Defendant? Ct Proceedings, in What Language?

Grandfather who 'dropped toddler 150ft to her death' on cruise ship arrives at court in Puerto Rico | Daily Mail Online

@Blondie in Spokane Thanks for your post w the link.
Good old DM, again describing G'father as "elderly IT worker." bbm. IIRC, he is ~ 51 y/o. LOL.
A mere pup, whippersnapper, young'un, spring chicken, in the eyes of some .
Pls let's not get into (another) discussion about who is elderly. jmo

A point of actual relevance, in case anyone was wondering, these ct proceedings are in Spanish. Per ^ DM, defendant has "court-appoprovided translator who relayed the Spanish language proceedings to him in English."

 

[Catmommy]

"Elderly"? Maybe 51 is old for people in that part of the world?

 

[book-thinker]

"Elderly"? Maybe 51 is old for people in that part of the world?

Elderly at 51. Then I'm ancient at 63!

 

[Catmommy]

I'm right there with you and I like to refer to myself, not as a "cougar", as a sabre tooth. No shame in our games. This is why we are wise, lol.

 

[they'll get you]

I'm right there with you and I like to refer to myself, not as a "cougar", as a sabre tooth. No shame in our games. This is why we are wise, lol.

When I first jumped into this thread I read everywhere the grandfather was elderly so I thought maybe 75+ until many here put me straight at 51. Certainly not old.

Could the defense be using his age as a ploy or reason.

 

[they'll get you]

Before? What did they see before he dropped her? Wow....

It’s the beginning of a relaxing cruise, when you sit and relax in that area you can totally chill and watch the world go by and it’s easy to fix your eyes on someone else walking by, carrying a sweet baby girl, walking up past you and then to a window close by and.........
There will be witnesses.

 

[they'll get you]

Were selfies being taken of Chloé?

In the video you see how quick it happens.

Horrifying moment mother 'taking selfies' on a shopping centre escalator drops her 10-month-old baby girl who falls three storeys to her death

Horrifying moment baby dies after mother taking selfies on a shopping centre escalator drops her | Daily Mail Online

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

I’m so glad there are witnesses and anxious to hear what they have to say.

I wonder how long grandpa has been married to grandma. I really don’t think anything nefarious happened, just wondering if they had a firm history of him being around and dealing with the kids one-on-one.

You have to wonder if the parents will ever accept that it was grandpa’s negligence that ended Chloe’s life. I would think that those feelings/possibilities would have to enter the parents’ minds during thoughtful, quiet times. You know.....those dark thoughts that just occur to you sometimes, the ones that nag at you. If grandpa is found guilty would or could they ever accept it?

Obviously this case really bothers me....a LOT.