IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[they'll get you]

Violating Court Order re Evidence?

@SpanishInquisition re ^bbm ^
Did court issue an order re distribution or public release of evidence or maintaining "confidentiality of the evidence"? Or is there a standing ct rule in PR? If so, link pls? Or anyone? TiA.

I most certainly could have missed; if so, apologizing in adv.

In the released photos there is a copyright emblem and ‘courtesy of Lipcon, Margulies, Alaina & Winkleman, PA’
So who are all these people and is someone getting the rights and money for these photos?

Haunting final photo shows toddler before she fell from grandfather's arms to her death | Daily Mail Online

 

[they'll get you]

This child’s wading pool is only inches deep IIRC and the step down into the water appears to be 1’, Chloé must have been a very reliable child to stand alone unattended even for 5 seconds while this photo was taken.
I’m not saying she was in a dangerous place at this time but still she was a baby.

 

[al66pine]

Vid Clips of Chloe, Pre-Fall. Who Distributed? "Confidentiality of the Evidence?"

Isn't Winkelman flagrantly violating the court order by distributing video clips? It's one thing for a journalist to do something but it seems inappropriate for a member of the bar to be publicly flouting the confidentiality of the evidence. I'm not surprised that he'd see it or distribute it on the down low, but to do it publicly doesn't seem right.

@SpanishInquisition bbm
Per nypost link below, PR prosecutors (in criminal case against G'father) are distributing vid clips, not Winkleman, who is representing Chloe's parents re potential civil case against cruiseline.
Maybe Winkleman is also distrib'ing the vid clips, maybe just not mentioned in this link.

Source of this being a violation --- either by Prosecutors or by Winklemen, pls. Anyone?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Prosecutors shared the surveillance video with the defense team this week, according to ABC News, which reviewed the horrifying footage, as did CBS News." bbm
https://nypost.com/2019/11/22/video...grandfather-thought-window-was-closed-lawyer/

 

[they'll get you]

These pictures are NOT of the same windows!!
I am not going to be persuaded by shots like this.

Pease look at the deck chairs here which are not tall and these windows do not appear to open so the railing is low.


Where here it’s abvious these windows are higher.
IMO.

 

[MsMarple]

I wonder is parts of the video were edited to the media.

That may be the case but I doubt it's been specifically edited to remove SA dangling Chloe out the window. If the video shown to msm has SA standing Chloe on the railing then sitting her down on it the implication would then be that right after she and SA leaned forward to look out the window he somehow lifted her again and dangled her out the window. Then it would have to cut back to her sitting on the railing and falling out the window. It makes no sense.

Besides, the Chief of Police in PR corrected the earlier statement. Is he in cahoots with the lawyers? Why would either lawyer risk his license to practice law to win one specious case? And RCCL sure as hell would be contacting the reporters to say the video had been altered. IMO what's been reported in msm is horrible enough as it is and there's no need to try and bend that information into a conspiracy by the lawyers.

 

[they'll get you]

From the link:

Anello can be seen moments later lifting Chloe up to give her a better view before he places her on a metal railing, still holding her with two hands as the pair lean forward to get a better view.

Three to four seconds later she vanishes through what is the only visibly open window in the entire bank of glass.
...
Chloe's older brother is the next member of the family to arrive, and looks stunned and confused as he realizes what is happening.

Kimberly follows close behind, fighting through the crowd to gaze down from the window before recoiling in shock and collapsing in grief.

Moments later her police officer husband arrives and covers his face with his hands as he struggles to cope with what he's seeing.

The video ends with Anello being led away by two members of staff, seemingly unable to stand or walk by himself.
Haunting final photo shows toddler before she fell from grandfather's arms to her death | Daily Mail Online
According to the article it happened around 4:30 pm. So he had both hands on Chloe and yet she still fell. Ugh.

RBBM

The railing is wood, the window frame is metal.

 

[al66pine]

Vid Clips of Chloe, Pre-Fall. Who Distributed? "Confidentiality of the Evidence?"

Isn't Winkelman flagrantly violating the court order by distributing video clips? It's one thing for a journalist to do something but it seems inappropriate for a member of the bar to be publicly flouting the confidentiality of the evidence. I'm not surprised that he'd see it or distribute it on the down low, but to do it publicly doesn't seem right.

. @SpanishInquisition bbm
Per nypost link below, PR prosecutors (in criminal case against G'father) are distributing vid clips, not Winkleman, who is representing Chloe's parents re potential civil case against cruiseline.
Maybe Winkleman is also distrib'ing the vid clips, but just not mentioned in this link.

Source of this being a violation re "confidentiality of the evidence" --- either by Prosecutors or by Winklemen, pls. Anyone? Thx in adv.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Prosecutors shared the surveillance video with the defense team this week, according to ABC News, which reviewed the horrifying footage, as did CBS News." bbm
https://nypost.com/2019/11/22/video...grandfather-thought-window-was-closed-lawyer/

 

[sl222]

I'm sure Mr. Winkleman cares about this family and is helping them to the best of his ability and I have to say, he's certainly more than good at influencing public opinion and spinning things to make the GF look not guilty. He's doing a masterful job at PR more than anything in my amateur opinion. Looks like it's taking a toll on him and it also looks like he realizes this case isn't that good. Still you have to hand it to him as a professional at what he's doing. It's more than annoying from the POV of view that the responsibility lies with the GF, yes. But he is very aggressive and talented, I can't help but notice. Teasing out these mini-clips, for example. What a lot of people have really wanted to see. But always making it look like the GF did not use poor judgment when he did. I so feel for the parents who must have such pain that they did not have Chloe with them.

I have to admit I have often wondered if Chloe was just coming from the pool area in her swimsuit. It is easy to see how the family was relatively close by and doing the pool thing and other things nearby and this was just Chloe and the GF walking from the pool area to possibly join some of the others.

To say she "disappeared" may be how it appears. But it also is very passive wording on his part intentionally. She was let go of. That much is certain. I would hold a toddler with a very secure (but not hurtful) grip because I am over-cautious, especially in any unfamiliar environment.

The fact that this happened so quickly (so they're saying, and I can believe it) is JMO more proof that the GF was behaving carelessly, and not holding on to Chloe in a responsible way, due to maybe drinks and/or to being jovial in the first few hours on a cruise.

They keep making it sound like there was only one window open. As others have pointed out, that only makes it seem like they intentionally went to the window because it was open. But it's hard to believe that 4-5 hours after boarding time there was only one window open. Usually there are a lot of open windows in the photos people have taken. Heavily tinted vs. clearly open.

I'm sure Mr. Winkleman will advise his clients on the likelihood of winning any settlement. But one thing: he says a lot of things but saying them does not make it true. But he knows that a lot of people will assume he's being factual in his statements that the ship violated safety guidelines - but they didn't.

It must be very trying for the family to be proceeding this way.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Exactly! Who sit a child on the railing of a bridge?

Someone with an ulterior motive?

 

[al66pine]

Pix & Copyright?

In the released photos there is a copyright emblem and ‘courtesy of Lipcon, Margulies, Alaina & Winkleman, PA’
So who are all these people and is someone getting the rights and money for these photos?

Haunting final photo shows toddler before she fell from grandfather's arms to her death | Daily Mail Online

@they'll get you In one pic, looks like the law firm rep'ing Chloe's parents in contemplated/threatened civil suit against cruise line. Below is a link to a search result.

Who knows who took pix?? Could have been Mom or Dad, or brother. Or another passenger, who provided to them. IDK.

Darling pix of a darling girl.
-----------------------------------------------
"lipcon.com - Maritime Injury Attorney
https://www.lipcon.com

• Overview
• Reviews

• About LMAW, PA. The maritime lawyers at Lipcon, Margulies, Alsina & Winkleman have been dedicated to helping victims of cruise line related accidents, injuries and crimes for over 40 years."

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Sorry if I'm repeating myself.
Not intentional.
My comments are showing as 'loading' and then the post gets doubled-posted.

Site has been wonky all day

 

[apricotpeach]

Not sure if Inside Edition counts as MSM, but one of their reporters has watched the video - the reporter described it as the grandfather picks Chloe up and holds her over the railing, and then a few seconds later, Chloe disappears (when she falls). According to the attorney, neither Chloe's parents nor the grandfather have seen the video.

It's not clear if this video is the same one that the CBS reporter watched - the CBS reporter's description of what he saw on the video seemed more detailed than what Inside Edition reporter described.

 

[they'll get you]

Someone with an ulterior motive?

 

[al66pine]

Pix of Chloe at H20 zone?

This child’s wading pool is only inches deep IIRC and the step down into the water appears to be 1’, Chloé must have been a very reliable child to stand alone unattended even for 5 seconds while this photo was taken.I’m not saying she was in a dangerous place at this time but still she was a baby.
View attachment 217043

@they'll get you . Good points of observation about the pic.
Is it carefully staged? Looking at it on a little tablet screen, I cannot see any other ppl in the image. Seems unusual. Anyone see other ppl? jmo.

 

[LietKynes]

That may be the case but I doubt it's been specifically edited to remove SA dangling Chloe out the window. If the video shown to msm has SA standing Chloe on the railing then sitting her down on it the implication would then be that right after she and SA leaned forward to look out the window he somehow lifted her again and dangled her out the window. Then it would have to cut back to her sitting on the railing and falling out the window. It makes no sense.

Besides, the Chief of Police in PR corrected the earlier statement. Is he in cahoots with the lawyers? Why would either lawyer risk his license to practice law to win one specious case? And RCCL sure as hell would be contacting the reporters to say the video had been altered. IMO what's been reported in msm is horrible enough as it is and there's no need to try and bend that information into a conspiracy by the lawyers.

bbm

First bolded : It would make sense if G-pa was playing the "Whoopsie" type of game.
The translated version of the PR LE described that she fell in an 'act of games'; iirc.

Sorry for the graphic :

As if G-pa was dangling her, then setting her back on the wooden railing or window ledge, then holding her upright again, then setting her down on the window or railing in a 'sitting' position... horrifying to contemplate.

It's possible RCCL wanted to edit out the exact moment that she fell as it might be deemed too distressing for the public.
Not the first time that has happened with footage from such incidents.
I can think of some but that's going down a rabbit hole.

I'd imagine RCCL have gone over all of thew footage at nearly frame by frame.
For their own protection as well as understanding just how this tragedy happened.

Second bolded : Do you have a link for that ?
I was unaware that the Chief of Police in PR walked back his original statement that Chloe fell during some sort of 'game' that SA was playing.
If that's what you're referring to in your post ?
This thread is moving at a quick pace and it's easy to fall behind.
Thanks in advance !

 

[LietKynes]

Pix of Chloe at H20 zone?

@they'll get you . Good points of observation about the pic.
Is it carefully staged? Looking at it on a little tablet screen, I cannot see any other ppl in the image. Seems unusual. Anyone see other ppl? jmo.

If the water is 1 ft. deep -- I can't imagine an adult not holding her little hand !

Even at about 3 or 4 yrs old --you have to keep a close eye out for them, esp. near water.

 

[they'll get you]

If I needed to get off that ship quickly I wouldn’t know how..
I might try to take the lift down as far as I could and then try to negotiate the labyrinth of corridors to the dock.

Trust me it’s not easy.

I feel the panick of not knowing what to do and nobody to help me get to Chloé.
Get to her parents first to tell them what’s happened, fall to my knees in a useless lump or get down to Chloé.

It’s horribly painful.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Wait - are you saying something happened to the video and a portion is missing? Or that someone edited it? I thought they said they had video from multiple angles.

Do you remember if that early report was in English or Spanish? I'll look for a link but I believe someone else said they couldn't find it anymore.

ETA: I did manage to find this:
Police chief Scott Ruszkowski disputed the statement issued by Puerto Rico police that the girl was being held out of the window.
Cruise ship slammed over little girl’s death
Police release statement after daughter of SB officer dies on cruise ship in Puerto Rico

I hadn’t even thought about editing the video. Maybe????

I’ll do my best on the sister ship Voyager in 3 weeks time.
I won’t be using a tape measure but using my female hand, arm and showing measurements against my height of 5’5”.
I’m sure a tape measure might gain too much attention.

For some reason WS won’t accept videos from my IPhone as they are too large so I’ll have to rely on photos. I’ll try to do it discreetly the day we board & while I have wifi available.
I’ll have to duck away as hubby would be mortified.

On iPhones there’s an icon for measuring. Pretty easy to use.

 

[al66pine]

Who said what?

Not sure if Inside Edition counts as MSM, but one of their reporters has watched the video - the reporter described it as the grandfather picks Chloe up and holds her over the railing, and then a few seconds later, Chloe disappears (when she falls).

According to the attorney, neither Chloe's parents nor the grandfather have seen the video.
It's not clear if this video is the same one that the CBS reporter watched - the CBS reporter's description of what he saw on the video seemed more detailed than what Inside Edition reporter described.

. @apricotpeach bbm
So many articles and multiple atty's, hard to tell which one ^ post refers to without a link.
Re ^ bbm, which attorney said that, pls? TiA.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

This child’s wading pool is only inches deep IIRC and the step down into the water appears to be 1’, Chloé must have been a very reliable child to stand alone unattended even for 5 seconds while this photo was taken.
I’m not saying she was in a dangerous place at this time but still she was a baby.
View attachment 217043

Very strange that there are NO OTHER CHILDREN in the water play area when this photo was taken. Every other photo of H2O Zone that I've seen shows many youngsters in the onboard water play facility. Did Grandpa take the photo?