IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[katydid23]

So Grandpa and Chloe were the only members of the family group who didn't go to the dining area? Chloe's parents, one set of grandparents, SA's wife (Kim's mother), and the 10-year-old brother all went to eat together without Grandpa and Chloe? SA and Chloe weren't hungry? Why weren't they with the rest of the family group? Who's idea was it for Grandpa to watch Chloe while everyone else (if they were all eating together) was in the dining area? Maybe Grandpa wanted to smoke and couldn't do that in the dining area.

I'm wondering if the rest of the family went ahead to get in line, get a table and some food , and then grandpa was going to meet them there with the baby. ... 18 month old kids aren't very patient and it might work better to swoop in with her when she had a place to sit down and start eating?

 

[they'll get you]

From what I read, The parents, grandmother and older brother had gone to the buffet. I am not sure where that is located though.

I read they’d gone to the Windjammers buffet.

 

[MsMarple]

bbm

First bolded : It would make sense if G-pa was playing the "Whoopsie" type of game.
The translated version of the PR LE described that she fell in an 'act of games'; iirc.

Sorry for the graphic :

As if G-pa was dangling her, then setting her back on the wooden railing or window ledge, then holding her upright again, then setting her down on the window or railing in a 'sitting' position... horrifying to contemplate.

It's possible RCCL wanted to edit out the exact moment that she fell as it might be deemed too distressing for the public.
Not the first time that has happened with footage from such incidents.
I can think of some but that's going down a rabbit hole.

I'd imagine RCCL have gone over all of thew footage at nearly frame by frame.
For their own protection as well as understanding just how this tragedy happened.

Second bolded : Do you have a link for that ?
I was unaware that the Chief of Police in PR walked back his original statement that Chloe fell during some sort of 'game' that SA was playing.
If that's what you're referring to in your post ?
This thread is moving at a quick pace and it's easy to fall behind.
Thanks in advance !

For the first bolded, if SA was playing a game then it would be on the video and the msm reporters certainly would have mentioned it but so far none have. And if RCCL purposely edited out a part that would clearly show SA doing something way more dangerous than sitting Chloe on the railing why would they erase clear negligence on SA's part? That would make it look like the lawyers are right.

The second bolded was in reference to an earlier report from LE saying SA held Chloe out of the window (IOW dangled her). The police chief said that was not correct. I linked it upthread but here it is again:

Police Chief Scott Ruszkowski has told WSBT that she was not held out of a window, as some news agencies have reported.
Police release statement after daughter of SB officer dies on cruise ship in Puerto Rico
Police chief Scott Ruszkowski disputed the statement issued by Puerto Rico police that the girl was being held out of the window.
Cruise ship slammed over little girl’s death

All we can do right now is read what's being reported in msm and none of the reporters are saying the video shows SA dangling Chloe or even holding her out the window. And if RCCL, LE or the lawyers faked part of the video - and we're told there is video from multiple angles - then IMO it would be a stupid move. It would for sure jeopardize their credibility. Pulling shenanigans benefits no one IMO.

What's been published so far from reporters who have viewed the video is horrifying enough and IMO clearly shows SA being negligent. This business about the video "proving" SA thought there was glass is laughable IMO.
From CBS News:

"It may be hard for some people to believe that the grandpa didn't know that that section of the window was open. … How did he know that there was glass?" Begnaud asked.

"The only way that you can prove or disprove anything that Sam said is based on the video and based on his testimony … Those are the only pieces of evidence you have," Winkleman said. "There were no eye witnesses. There's no one who's come forward to tell any different story. … So all you have is Sam's testimony, his story and the video."
Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death

Prosecutors shared the surveillance video with the defense team this week, according to ABC News, which reviewed the horrifying footage, as did CBS News.

The video, which did not include audio, shows Chloe wearing a white hat, her swimsuit and swim shoes, running across the pool area with her granddad a few feet behind, ABC reported.

They walk over to a wall of windows, where Anello appears to look over the railing, through an open window. He picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing — and they appear to lean over to peer out over the port.

He then sits Chloe on the railing and they lean over again before she disappears from the frame when she falls 115 feet to her death. Moments later, Anello drops to the floor.
https://nypost.com/2019/11/22/video...grandfather-thought-window-was-closed-lawyer/

ETA: I just learned that the police chief quoted in the article at the beginning of my post is LE from Indiana and not Puerto Rico so all bets are off. Thanks for the heads up, @Midwestmom2019 !

 

[they'll get you]

I'm wondering if the rest of the family went ahead to get in line, get a table and some food , and then grandpa was going to meet them there with the baby. ... 18 month old kids aren't very patient and it might work better to swoop in with her when she had a place to sit down and start eating?

High chairs need to be found as well.

 

[al66pine]

Vid of H20 Zone. Many Windows Open.

@1:30 this is where I think Chloé is standing.
From the kids running in the water you can see is only inches deep but the timber ledge down to the water is about a 1’ drop.
@:20 you can see most windows are open, this is usual. IMO.

@they'll get you bbm Tremendous find, this vid. Thank you. Not sure about where (in vid) she would have been standing.
In still pic, looking at floor (next to boadwalk) from her knees to armpit height, floor is red.
and and and from her armpit to mid-hat height/bonnet, floor is yellow.
On this vid, I did not find any spot of yellow floor bordering boardwalk/timber walk, w red bordering the yellow and toward center of "pool." jmo

Certainly nailed it on so many windows being open.

 

[katydid23]

So Grandpa and Chloe were the only members of the family group who didn't go to the dining area? Chloe's parents, one set of grandparents, SA's wife (Kim's mother), and the 10-year-old brother all went to eat together without Grandpa and Chloe? SA and Chloe weren't hungry? Why weren't they with the rest of the family group? Who's idea was it for Grandpa to watch Chloe while everyone else (if they were all eating together) was in the dining area? Maybe Grandpa wanted to smoke and couldn't do that in the dining area.

I'm wondering if the rest of the family went ahead to get in line, get a table and some food , and then grandpa was going to meet them there with the baby. ... 18 month old kids aren't very patient and it might work better to swoop in with her when she had a place to sit down and start eating?

They walk over to a wall of windows, where Anello appears to look over the railing, through an open window. He picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing — and they appear to lean over to peer out over the port.

He then sits Chloe on the railing and they lean over again before she disappears from the frame when she falls 115 feet to her death. Moments later, Anello drops to the floor.
https://nypost.com/2019/11/22/video...grandfather-thought-window-was-closed-lawyer/

Anello appears to look over the railing, through an open window. He picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing — and they appear to lean over to peer out over the port.

He then sits Chloe on the railing and they lean over again before she disappears from the frame when she falls 115 feet to her death...


^^^^To me, it sounds like Grandpa looked through the window 1st, then picked up the baby , stood her on the railing, briefly. It would have to be brief because I don't think an 18 month old can balance on such a thin rail, even if she was being propped up.

But apparently they both leaned forward and peered out the window. SO RIGHT THEN , HE HAD HIS SECOND PEEK THROUGH THAT OPEN WINDOW.

No way he could have thought the window was closed by that point. ...No Way.

So he then sits the baby on that railing. She has to be facing towards the open window at that time. WHERE ARE HER LEGS AND FEET PLACED?

If they were hanging down from the railing, would she slip so quickly and easily out the window sill?

I am wondering if her feet were up on the window sill at that point? Then when 'THEY BOTH LEAN FORWARD AGAIN' she would quickly be pushed forward and out the open window?

JMO IMO MOO

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Pic

@1:30 this is where I think Chloé is standing.
From the kids running in the water you can see is only inches deep but the timber ledge down to the water is about a 1’ drop.

@:20 you can see most windows are open, this is usual. IMO.

w Chloe's Shoes. Shadows or Soles?

@Midwestmom2019 Good point about early boarding.
re bbm What (I think) you see as a bit of shadow under her shoes, I see as black rubber on side-sole of her shoes. Looks like a short black vertical "stripe" of same up her heels. Maybe w a little black loop or tab to help put shoes off and on.
All kinds of ways to see & interp these pix. Jmo, could be wrong.

Well if black rubber, even more that shopped or absolutely perfect high noon. Let me look again.
Ok. What I thought was shadow was water spots. Solved.
Next: no shadow might be bc no sun. Check out the skies. Look overcast. But REALLY check out the ship’s maritime flags. The wind is so strong that the flags are flying straight out. At this time they were still tied to dock. Even one window would blow air all across the area. And it was a smoking area best guess more than one window open.
Also, there seats, lounge chairs, tables all around that area. Preventing access to much of the windows. SA would have
to have looked for an available open window.

 

[they'll get you]

I'm wondering if the rest of the family went ahead to get in line, get a table and some food , and then grandpa was going to meet them there with the baby. ... 18 month old kids aren't very patient and it might work better to swoop in with her when she had a place to sit down and start eating?


Anello appears to look over the railing, through an open window. He picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing — and they appear to lean over to peer out over the port.

He then sits Chloe on the railing and they lean over again before she disappears from the frame when she falls 115 feet to her death...


^^^^To me, it sounds like Grandpa looked through the window 1st, then picked up the baby , stood her on the railing, briefly. It would have to be brief because I don't think an 18 month old can balance on such a thin rail, even if she was being propped up.

But apparently they both leaned forward and peered out the window. SO RIGHT THEN , HE HAD HIS SECOND PEEK THROUGH THAT OPEN WINDOW.

No way he could have thought the window was closed by that point. ...No Way.

So he then sits the baby on that railing. She has to be facing towards the open window at that time. WHERE ARE HER LEGS AND FEET PLACED?

If they were hanging down from the railing, would she slip so quickly and easily out the window sill?

I am wondering if her feet were up on the window sill at that point? Then when 'THEY BOTH LEAN FORWARD AGAIN' she would quickly be pushed forward and out the open window?

JMO IMO MOO

IMO that’s exactly what happened.
The chest high wood rail sits about one foot away from the wall/window and the window ledge is about 6” lower than the rail. Its kind of a staggered thing but when you are there it makes sense as the rail holds you back off the window but it’s high enough for an adult to tilt their head and shoulders (only) over or to take photos down or left & right.

If the windows were higher I’m sure some knucklehead would drag a table or chair across and stand on that for a selfie. Let’s face it, people fall off cliffs for a good picture.

Please don’t cage the ship or weld them shut as no one will be able to escape if in need.

 

[BeachSky]

For the first bolded, if SA was playing a game then it would be on the video and the msm reporters certainly would have mentioned it but so far none have. And if RCCL purposely edited out a part that would clearly show SA doing something way more dangerous than sitting Chloe on the railing why would they erase clear negligence on SA's part? That would make it look like the lawyers are right.

The second bolded was in reference to an earlier report from LE saying SA held Chloe out of the window (IOW dangled her). The police chief said that was not correct. I linked it upthread but here it is again:

Police Chief Scott Ruszkowski has told WSBT that she was not held out of a window, as some news agencies have reported.
Police release statement after daughter of SB officer dies on cruise ship in Puerto Rico
Police chief Scott Ruszkowski disputed the statement issued by Puerto Rico police that the girl was being held out of the window.
Cruise ship slammed over little girl’s death

All we can do right now is read what's being reported in msm and none of the reporters are saying the video shows SA dangling Chloe or even holding her out the window. And if RCCL, LE or the lawyers faked part of the video - and we're told there is video from multiple angles - then IMO it would be a stupid move. It would for sure jeopardize their credibility. Pulling shenanigans benefits no one IMO.

What's been published so far from reporters who have viewed the video is horrifying enough and IMO clearly shows SA being negligent. This business about the video "proving" SA thought there was glass is laughable IMO.
From CBS News:

"It may be hard for some people to believe that the grandpa didn't know that that section of the window was open. … How did he know that there was glass?" Begnaud asked.

"The only way that you can prove or disprove anything that Sam said is based on the video and based on his testimony … Those are the only pieces of evidence you have," Winkleman said. "There were no eye witnesses. There's no one who's come forward to tell any different story. … So all you have is Sam's testimony, his story and the video."
Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death

Prosecutors shared the surveillance video with the defense team this week, according to ABC News, which reviewed the horrifying footage, as did CBS News.

The video, which did not include audio, shows Chloe wearing a white hat, her swimsuit and swim shoes, running across the pool area with her granddad a few feet behind, ABC reported.

They walk over to a wall of windows, where Anello appears to look over the railing, through an open window. He picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing — and they appear to lean over to peer out over the port.

He then sits Chloe on the railing and they lean over again before she disappears from the frame when she falls 115 feet to her death. Moments later, Anello drops to the floor.
https://nypost.com/2019/11/22/video...grandfather-thought-window-was-closed-lawyer/

“I just dropped my child! I thought there was glass! I thought there was glass!” he yelled,

I just dropped my child is the first thing he says.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

For the first bolded, if SA was playing a game then it would be on the video and the msm reporters certainly would have mentioned it but so far none have. And if RCCL purposely edited out a part that would clearly show SA doing something way more dangerous than sitting Chloe on the railing why would they erase clear negligence on SA's part? That would make it look like the lawyers are right.

The second bolded was in reference to an earlier report from LE saying SA held Chloe out of the window (IOW dangled her). The police chief said that was not correct. I linked it upthread but here it is again:

Police Chief Scott Ruszkowski has told WSBT that she was not held out of a window, as some news agencies have reported.
Police release statement after daughter of SB officer dies on cruise ship in Puerto Rico
Police chief Scott Ruszkowski disputed the statement issued by Puerto Rico police that the girl was being held out of the window.
Cruise ship slammed over little girl’s death

All we can do right now is read what's being reported in msm and none of the reporters are saying the video shows SA dangling Chloe or even holding her out the window. And if RCCL, LE or the lawyers faked part of the video - and we're told there is video from multiple angles - then IMO it would be a stupid move. It would for sure jeopardize their credibility. Pulling shenanigans benefits no one IMO.

What's been published so far from reporters who have viewed the video is horrifying enough and IMO clearly shows SA being negligent. This business about the video "proving" SA thought there was glass is laughable IMO.
From CBS News:

"It may be hard for some people to believe that the grandpa didn't know that that section of the window was open. … How did he know that there was glass?" Begnaud asked.

"The only way that you can prove or disprove anything that Sam said is based on the video and based on his testimony … Those are the only pieces of evidence you have," Winkleman said. "There were no eye witnesses. There's no one who's come forward to tell any different story. … So all you have is Sam's testimony, his story and the video."
Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death

Prosecutors shared the surveillance video with the defense team this week, according to ABC News, which reviewed the horrifying footage, as did CBS News.

The video, which did not include audio, shows Chloe wearing a white hat, her swimsuit and swim shoes, running across the pool area with her granddad a few feet behind, ABC reported.

They walk over to a wall of windows, where Anello appears to look over the railing, through an open window. He picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing — and they appear to lean over to peer out over the port.

He then sits Chloe on the railing and they lean over again before she disappears from the frame when she falls 115 feet to her death. Moments later, Anello drops to the floor.
https://nypost.com/2019/11/22/video...grandfather-thought-window-was-closed-lawyer/

Police Chief Scott Ruszkowski is from South Bend. Not PR. Police In SB always support the officer and their story.

 

[katydid23]

“I just dropped my child! I thought there was glass! I thought there was glass!” he yelled,

I just dropped my child is the first thing he says.

WOW. Good catch. He didnt say 'my child fell out the window.'

He clearly blurted out ==" I JUST DROPPED MY CHILD."

 

[MsMarple]

Police Chief Scott Ruszkowski is from South Bend. Not PR. Police In SB always support the officer and their story.

Ah, thanks for that! So IOW he was parroting what the family said, not what Puerto Rico LE said? Cripes, so many people defending SA who weren't even there! I'm glad there's video.

 

[they'll get you]

I still think they poked the wrong bear.

I think they’re really devastated by the fact that these charges have been filed and that this case continues to go forward,” he told CBS.

“They’re shocked because they think it’s groundless. … They certainly didn’t want charges to be filed.”
CCTV footage to explain how toddler fell from cruise ship

 

[LietKynes]

For the first bolded, if SA was playing a game then it would be on the video and the msm reporters certainly would have mentioned it but so far none have. And if RCCL purposely edited out a part that would clearly show SA doing something way more dangerous than sitting Chloe on the railing why would they erase clear negligence on SA's part? That would make it look like the lawyers are right.

The second bolded was in reference to an earlier report from LE saying SA held Chloe out of the window (IOW dangled her). The police chief said that was not correct. I linked it upthread but here it is again:

Police Chief Scott Ruszkowski has told WSBT that she was not held out of a window, as some news agencies have reported.

Snipped for focus

Ok, thanks !

Yes I missed it but was thinking the PR LE had backtracked.
And "negligent homicide" would indicate there's no evidence of purposeful malice in SA's dropping Chloe.
Otherwise the charges would be more severe.
And if it was an intentional act-- there's no way RCCL is going to be able to prove it ; at least on camera.

PC S.R. apparently believes M. Winkleman's account.
And of course he would support Chloe's father who is a SB IN LE.
It'd be odd if he questioned a member of his state's LE.

The PR Police weren't there at the time of the incident, and neither was S.R.
But the earliest accounts would've been fresh to the memory of the ship's employees -- and sadly more horrifying.
Something terrible happens and it stands out with a vivid clarity.

I'd imagine PR LE talked at length to the RCCL staff-- as SA was not giving a statement and was upset about the lack of an interpreter.
Wow. This is an odd and complicated case.

The parent's lawsuit makes it more complicated. Imo.
Why not back down and let SA face his consequences ?

I still want to hear from witnesses. Whether they were passengers or employees.
What did they see ?

 

[LietKynes]

WOW. Good catch. He didnt say 'my child fell out the window.'

He clearly blurted out ==" I JUST DROPPED MY CHILD."

Holy crap.
Sounds like he's lost his case and the parent's lawsuit right there.
Maybe her parents wish he wouldn't say anything ?
But shut his yap ?

Why didn't he say her name, as in "Chloe" ?
It was his step granddaughter.
Inconsequential detail.
But still.

 

[MsMarple]

Snipped for focus

Ok, thanks !

Yes I missed it but was thinking the PR LE had backtracked.
And "negligent homicide" would indicate there's no evidence of purposeful malice in SA's dropping Chloe.
Otherwise the charges would be more severe.
And if it was an intentional act-- there's no way RCCL is going to be able to prove it ; at least on camera.

PC S.R. apparently believes M. Winkleman's account.
And of course he would support Chloe's father who is a SB IN LE.
It'd be odd if he questioned a member of his state's LE.

The PR Police weren't there at the time of the incident, and neither was S.R.
But the earliest accounts would've been fresh to the memory of the ship's employees -- and sadly more horrifying.
Something terrible happens and it stands out with a vivid clarity.

I'd imagine PR LE talked at length to the RCCL staff-- as SA was not giving a statement and was upset about the lack of an interpreter.
Wow. This is an odd and complicated case.

The parent's lawsuit makes it more complicated. Imo.
Why not back down and let SA face his consequences ?

I still want to hear from witnesses. Whether they were passengers or employees.
What did they see ?

Good point about negligent homicide; if there was evidence of a malicious act (even if supposedly done in fun it could still be construed as abuse IMO) I'd think the charge would be manslaughter at the least.

The prosecutor claims they have witnesses both on the ship and on shore yet Winkleman insists there are no eyewitnesses. So a difference between witnesses and eyewitnesses?? But yeah, if there are witnesses that should clear up a lot of the confusion.

Forensic experts studied the boat's windows, furniture and layout in the wake of the accident for clues as to how the child could have gone overboard.

They found the area had been busy but didn't obtain any first person accounts, with fellow passengers seemingly distracted by the pool, drinks and vacation plans.

Parents of Chloe Wiegand stand by her grandfather after he is charged in her death | Daily Mail Online

The prosecution stated they have witnesses from both on and off the island that they will call to testify and they are expecting to present new discovery evidence to the defense later in the day on Wednesday.

Grandfather charged in toddler’s fatal cruise ship fall appears in court

 

[al66pine]

Where Were Chloe's Parents & Other Fam Members?

I read they’d gone to the Windjammers buffet.

@they'll get you Yes, FWIW, I remember reading same ^, but cannot find link now, and do not remember who said that.
Where is the Deck 11 diagram showing the dining rooms, etc on that level? Anyone? TiA.

 

[al66pine]

What Should Forensic Experts Try to Obtain?

....
"Forensic experts studied the boat's windows, furniture and layout in the wake of the accident for clues as to how the child could have gone overboard.
They found the area had been busy but didn't obtain any first person accounts, with fellow passengers seemingly distracted by the pool, drinks and vacation plans."

Parents of Chloe Wiegand stand by her grandfather after he is charged in her death | Daily Mail Online ....

@MsMarple Thx for post w quotes & links.
Maybe it depends on who defines "forensic experts" but I do not us think of them as trying to obtain "first person accounts" at a (potential) crime scene. I think of detectives as the ones who try to do that
jmo, could be wrong, may be different in PR.

 

[Snoods]

What? People aren’t sitting on the rails and falling out willy-nilly? That’s what the lawyer & parents are implying!

RSBM BBM I believe there must be! There are no warning signs anywhere saying don’t thrust toddlers or anyone outside open windows on the 11th floor.

Suggestions: WARNING: This window is open if you can poke your head out and your head is not met with resistant green tinted glass. WARNING: This window is open if you can feel the sea breeze wafting through it. WARNING: This window is open IF IT IS OPEN.

Just drape the entire ship in netting.

 

[they'll get you]

Where Were Chloe's Parents & Other Fam Members?

@they'll get you Yes, FWIW, I remember reading same ^, but cannot find link now, and do not remember who said that.
Where is the Deck 11 diagram showing the dining rooms, etc on that level? Anyone? TiA.

This vid again is the best because at the very beginning vdo walk past Windjammers and then starboard out towards where Chloe was last.
I guess Windjammers is more aft but both (H20) are midship.

Deck 11.