IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

[Safeguard]

This video has the best account I've found yet, of what was on the video and also the entire story being put out by the fam. The reporters ask the all important questions we have been seeking answers to. imo.

 

[al66pine]

What is "the entire video"?

The press has the entire video.
They describe the entire incident even noting that Chloe's brother was the first family member to get to the scene ect...

@Safeguard
So media saw & reported on some footage showing:
(1) G'pa & Chloe at/close to window for (X? number of) seconds and
(2) brother's arrival at scene.
Could have been a gap between (1) and (2), and whoever commented on the vid may have noted the gap to the reporters present. Not necessarily a point MSM would have reported.
I'm not sure that ^ MSM description means media saw "entire video" from (1) thru (2) with no gaps, altho that's possible.

Is there video coverage of this presser?
Did Winkleman call the presser, or was it someone else?
Where was it held?Who covered? IIRC, ABC. Who else?
Links, pls. TIA.

{{{{ETA: @Safeguard - GMLA , as we both posted at almost same time.

In ABC clip you posted, Winkleman - in his office? -was showing vid to ABC reporter, who was kinda miming G'pa's actions of peering/leaning over rail, picking up Chloe, etc.
The clip gave appearance of that reporter being the only one in the office.
Any other vids w different reporters being there & seeing the vid?
I thought there was a presser w multiple reporters there. Maybe not.}}}

 

[LietKynes]

They were stage play videos amongst others. I saw them months ago - a mix of family stuff, amateur dramatics, Christmas lights, etc. What I found interesting was there was lots of hockey videos for the older grandson but virtually nothing of Chloe.

bbm

Wait... WHAT ??
Winkleman said she was a 'SPORTS FAN'.
His words, not mine.

Wonder if the family photoshopped the pic. of her standing rink side ?
With the right program, people can make themselves thinner in photos and remove facial blemishes.

 

[LietKynes]

Yup. SA was a seemingly devoted stage actor, which is crazy to say the least.

Makes me question the sincerity of his entire behavior from the point Chloe died onwards- especially his “collapse” on the cruise ship and fake interview cry.

I wonder if there is a way to recover the acting videos he deleted on youtube. Would be interesting to see him in an acting scene that involved crying or grief...

bbm
Excellent point .
He should've taken more acting classes as he is one bad actor.

Esp. if he slaps his knee repeatedly or shakes his shoulders and 'cries' without tears and cannot look at the other person.
It's not cruel to think he could be 'acting', as that was his hobby , or passion, or part time job --- take your pick.

I was taken in by Susan Smith's fake crying and since then have learned that a person can fake it quite well if they have something to lose.

You are coming from the point of view that this was truly an accident and that SA is tormented by guilt and feels remorseful. How do we know that’s true? That is as much speculation as saying he was acting during his interview because of his stage background.

There are all sorts of aberrant personalities and ways of thinking... Maybe he feels horrible or maybe he is enjoying life just fine and making plans for the future. I wouldn’t take it as fact that SA is tormented by what he did.

bbm

Agreed.
We don't know.
And his story has changed significantly since he dropped her to her death.
Most likely it's not SA having 'memory loss'.

A baby is dead.
And her family wants a payout. That simple.
It's not difficult to ascertain their motives.

If gramps ends up doing some time (3 years is nothing. Compared to the life that Chloe had stolen from her.); it will be interesting to see if the lawsuit moves forward.
My support is with RCCL at this time and not likely to change.
They will hopefully tell this family they don't get a penny.
The cruise line did not kill her.

Chloe's life was worth more than a fraudulent lawsuit. My opinion , may not be other's opinion.

 

[Safeguard]

Harrowing surveillance video captures 1-year-old's fatal fall off cruise ship

"In the video, which did not include audio, Chloe, wearing a white hat, her swim suit and swim shoes, runs across the pool area with her grandfather a few feet behind."

"They walk over to the wall of windows where Anello appears to look over the railing, through the open window. Anello picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing, and they appear to lean over together looking out over the port."

Then he re-adjusts and sits Chloe on the railing, still facing the port. They lean over again and she disappears from the frame."

"Moments later, Anello drops to the ground. Winkleman said Anello repeatedly screamed that he thought the window was closed."

"Other passengers then rush to the windows to see what happened. Some are seen walking away, clearly distraught."

There's actually another report that continued recounting what is seen on the ccv, which describes the brother, mom and then dads reactions , as they reach the window and ends with SA being led away by two crew members seemingly unable to walk unassisted. But for the life of me I can't seem to find it again.

 

[LietKynes]

Harrowing surveillance video captures 1-year-old's fatal fall off cruise ship

"In the video, which did not include audio, Chloe, wearing a white hat, her swim suit and swim shoes, runs across the pool area with her grandfather a few feet behind."

"They walk over to the wall of windows where Anello appears to look over the railing, through the open window. Anello picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing, and they appear to lean over together looking out over the port."

Then he re-adjusts and sits Chloe on the railing, still facing the port. They lean over again and she disappears from the frame."

"Moments later, Anello drops to the ground. Winkleman said Anello repeatedly screamed that he thought the window was closed."

"Other passengers then rush to the windows to see what happened. Some are seen walking away, clearly distraught."

There's actually another report that continued recounting what is seen on the ccv, which describes the brother, mom and then dads reactions , as they reach the window and ends with SA being led away by two crew members seemingly unable to walk unassisted. But for the life of me I can't seem to find it again.

pink bolding mine

^^^ Thanks for the link !

I thought there was an article stating she had been placed on the railing or window ledge in a standing position, but couldn't find it.
He looked through the open window, as in put his head through it.
So he knew there was no glass and it was open.
Why doesn't SA tell the truth and tell Winkleman or whomever is his current lawyer to stop with the lies ?
By now the public knows the answer.

Some of the articles since the incident happened have seemingly vanished.
Maybe at someone's request ?

 

[gitana1]

So perhaps his perception was in fact that there was a glass window there, and he lost his grip because there was an unexpected void. Regardless, the incident is an accident IMO. To criminalize it is about money, not justice.

No it’s not. PR gets no money as a result of a guilty verdict. It costs them to put on a trial.

The facts seem to show he leaned out the window to look at port, with the baby. They leaned back in. He then placed the baby on the rail and leaned her forward again. And she fell.

For him not to know after leaning twice through the open window that it was open? To not feel that strong wind? To not put his need to lean through the window in order to see port together with the fact that there was an open window there? He had to be seriously wasted. So wasted that this is reckless homicide. Greater than criminally negligent.

PR is unbiased. They have no reason to support the ship. If anything they have a reason not to turn off future cruisers.

 

[Stinalyn]

This video has the best account I've found yet, of what was on the video and also the entire story being put out by the fam. The reporters ask the all important questions we have been seeking answers to. imo.

Thank you for posting this video.
I do have a few more questions that I wish one of the reporters would ask him:
1)Had you been drinking? Had you had any alcohol at all since boarding the ship? How about the night before or prior to boarding the ship?
2) Were you taking any medication? Including over the counter medication?
3) Why did you refuse the breathalyzer test? If because of possible inaccurate results, why not a blood test?
4) Where were Chloe's parents? Did they ask you to watch Chloe or did you just notice she was wandering off and you followed her? (reporters said she was toddling towards the window and SA followed her)
5) Were you playing a game with her? Did you often or ever play games to "scare" her for fun?
6) Did you at anytime hold her outside the window?
7) Why has your story changed so many times?
8) Who hired the lawyer, Mr. Winkleman? Did he contact the family or did the family find him?
9) Do you smoke cigarettes? If so, were you smoking at the time Chloe fell? If you do smoke, but were not smoking at the time, when was your last cigarette?
10) Had you eaten that day? What and when?
11) How many hours of sleep did you get the night before?
12) Do you regularly wear your seatbelt? Why do you have so many seat belt tickets?
13) Do you think your color blindness played a part in this tragedy?
14) What's the deal with the Christmas Light videos?
OK maybe not the last question, but it's my fantasy interview, the questions I would really like answers to from HIM, not his lawyer or the other lawyer or the family, just him, without being coached.
MOO

 

[Safeguard]

@Stinalyn
I agree those are questions I would have liked to have seen also.

I strongly suspect the interview had conditions attached, questions they were not allowed to ask, per SA's lawyers advice.

As one poster here pointed out, some accounts and video news reports seem to be getting scrubbed, but I did see one interview where the news reporter said to SA, (paraphrasing):

'I watched that video with some of our team members, and I have to tell you, I can see why jurors might feel that you were negligent in that you put Chloe in a very dangerous situation for a considerable amount of time'.

I was hoping I could find the entire clip of that interview, but I am having a hard time finding any of the more complete reports on it, and the more thoughtful descriptions of the ccv video itself.

I do think the breathalyzer refusel question was off the table... And probably a few other questions that his legal team has not been able to fabricate a good reason for and therefore they prefer no one bring those questions up. At all. (possibly ever, if they can avoid it!) jmo

SA was most likely advised to get his side of the story out there, try to build some public sympathy and promote the fairytale about not knowing the window was open.

So far I don't think there's many who are buying that. But as his lawyer keeps hammering in, "There's no proof. All we have is SA's account and a ccv recording" (that his attorney claims does not show that he knew the window was open, but I believe it does show that, and some reporters who saw it obviously thought so too).

 

[SouthAussie]

I doubt that this case is going to come down to only the video footage - because who knows what angle that footage is recorded from. From behind him? From the side of him? From 10 feet away or from 100 feet away? Did people pass through the footage as it was recorded, perhaps blocking some of the footage?


Prosecutors say they have witnesses, both on and off the island, they plan to call to testify.
“We’re comfortable with the evidence that we have,” prosecutor Ivette Nieves told ABC News this week. “We have a solid case.”
Harrowing surveillance video captures 1-year-old's fatal fall off cruise ship

 

[MsMarple]

pink bolding mine

^^^ Thanks for the link !

I thought there was an article stating she had been placed on the railing or window ledge in a standing position, but couldn't find it.
He looked through the open window, as in put his head through it.
So he knew there was no glass and it was open.
Why doesn't SA tell the truth and tell Winkleman or whomever is his current lawyer to stop with the lies ?
By now the public knows the answer.

Some of the articles since the incident happened have seemingly vanished.
Maybe at someone's request ?

Hi Liet! Just a thought about "looking through" an open window... I think the phrase could be taken a couple of ways. My own interpretation was SA looked through the window but didn't necessarily stick his head *out* of it. IOW, I'm looking through my kitchen window right now - or I'm looking out my kitchen window or I'm looking out through my kitchen window. From 15 feet away. My head isn't literally out the window, my gaze is.

So what I think of the phrase is that one's head may not be actually outside. Others may think differently, that is, that one's head *is* outside. So far I'm taking the reporter's words as the first but I certainly could be wrong. Oh, the joy of semantics, lol.

 

[Safeguard]

Prosecutors say they have witnesses, both on and off the island, they plan to call to testify.
“We’re comfortable with the evidence that we have,” prosecutor Ivette Nieves told ABC News this week. “We have a solid case.”

I think they do have a very solid case.
For myself I would just like Gramps to tell the truth. He did not walk up to, look out of, the ONLY open window in that area, then pick Chloe up, so she could look outside too, because he "thought it was closed" . No. Way.

Never saw, heard, smelled, felt anything indicating an open window? or even CHECKED? Yeah sure. I was born on a day but it wasn't yesterday!

 

[neesaki]

bbm
Excellent point .
He should've taken more acting classes as he is one bad actor.

Esp. if he slaps his knee repeatedly or shakes his shoulders and 'cries' without tears and cannot look at the other person.
It's not cruel to think he could be 'acting', as that was his hobby , or passion, or part time job --- take your pick.

I was taken in by Susan Smith's fake crying and since then have learned that a person can fake it quite well if they have something to lose.



bbm

Agreed.
We don't know.
And his story has changed significantly since he dropped her to her death.
Most likely it's not SA having 'memory loss'.

A baby is dead.
And her family wants a payout. That simple.
It's not difficult to ascertain their motives.

If gramps ends up doing some time (3 years is nothing. Compared to the life that Chloe had stolen from her.); it will be interesting to see if the lawsuit moves forward.
My support is with RCCL at this time and not likely to change.
They will hopefully tell this family they don't get a penny.
The cruise line did not kill her.

Chloe's life was worth more than a fraudulent lawsuit. My opinion , may not be other's opinion.

Totally on the same page you are. IMO, this charade with the lawsuit and GP not owning up to what he did is such a dishonor to Chloe. It’s time for GP to own his actions, that’s the only real justice poor little Chloe will ever get.
My goodness, ghat baby had barely set foot on this earth when her precious little life was stolen from her. Just so heartbreaking.

 

[LietKynes]

Hi Liet! Just a thought about "looking through" an open window... I think the phrase could be taken a couple of ways. My own interpretation was SA looked through the window but didn't necessarily stick his head *out* of it. IOW, I'm looking through my kitchen window right now - or I'm looking out my kitchen window or I'm looking out through my kitchen window. From 15 feet away. My head isn't literally out the window, my gaze is.

So what I think of the phrase is that one's head may not be actually outside. Others may think differently, that is, that one's head *is* outside. So far I'm taking the reporter's words as the first but I certainly could be wrong. Oh, the joy of semantics, lol.

Agreed completely.

What was on that video ?
She didn't "disappear" when they both leaned forward.
Was anything edited ?

 

[SouthAussie]

I wonder what 'witnesses both on and off the island' means.
Other passengers/ship staff who have now returned to their homes that are not in PR? As well as witnesses who live in PR.
And/or people who have witnessed other previous dangerous behaviour by the grandfather?
And/or people who can dispel some of his explanations (his inabilities due to colour blindness etc)?


"Prosecutors say they have witnesses, both on and off the island, they plan to call to testify."

 

[al66pine]

A Split Second? 99.9%?
"You're dealing with what happened in a split second, in a terrible set of circumstances, but you have a grandfather who 99.9% of his attention is on his grandchildren," Winkleman told ABC News on Thursday." from Nov 22 article w 1 1/2 min vid Harrowing surveillance video captures 1-year-old's fatal fall off cruise ship
A split second? Yes, that's the time it took for G'pa to let go of Chloe.
Depending on how each of us interps MSM & quotes, what happened before that took ~ 8 to 30+ secs.

How much of his attn was focused on Chloe? Was he also juggling a beverage or ciggie? Apparently interested in seeing happenings visible from the window. Anything else? Was 99.9% an exaggeration?

 

[MsMarple]

While we wait for SA's next hearing to come around... here's a thought experiment:

What if SA himself, no Chloe, not drunk, not smoking, in full mental capacity, decided to climb up and sit on the railing. He leans forward to get a better look outside and falls through the window to his death.

Would his family blame RCCL? Would we have multiple threads discussing negligence, age and color blindness? Would it matter that the window was open? I doubt it.

In this case though SA put Chloe in that place on the railing instead of himself. Open window or not, is that a safe thing to do? Ship policy says it is not safe and in fact clearly states not to stand or sit on any ship railing.

But, anyone can sue anyone and the court decides if there's standing to do so. In 2015 a man either jumped or fell from a cruise ship while protesting anti GLBTQ sentiments from the crew - and it does sound like the crew was doing just that.

Winkleman was quoted as saying the cruise line (RCCL) did not do enough to save him, that they should have had a rope or given him a life jacket. From an article in People:

“The victim jumped down from his seventh floor balcony and struck the metal support for a lifeboat on the fifth floor,” the Broward Sheriff’s statement reads. “Elbaz clung to the ship as staff members tried to rescue him. He fell into the water moments later.”

My point is that people do stupid things and when they do something stupid on a cruise ship that ends in death, especially in Chloe's case where she had no - zero - say in her grandfather's actions, they *must* be held accountable for their own actions.

I believe the negligent homicide charge is appropriate. MOO.

 

[sl222]

Not saying this proves anything at this point, but since the CBS interview did not raise the question of whether SA had had anything to drink, that would have been the SA's golden opportunity to answer that question with a point blank no - if he really hadn't had anything to drink. The fact that it wasn't mentioned could indicate that he and/or the attorneys did not want to be asked this question (if so then there's only one reason why not, needless to say).

But I'm sure there are other points (health issues or whatever) that also weren't asked about, that they're saving to raise in his defense if it comes to a full-out trial.

The CBS interviewer's first report was that they'd seen the video and it all happened in 5 seconds, then a day or so later, the same interviewer had a very significant expression on his face (to me anyway, compared to the first report) when he had to update the report to say that the first video they were shown was not the real-time video after all, and how long the actual events took. (This is the same reporter who interviewed SA and asked him, "Don't you think that most people who see the video will say that this was recklessness" - paraphrasing). Also, in that updated version, the anchorman on the far right who was more sympathetic during the first segment about 5 seconds, did not repeat that point of view this time. The other 3 anchors just looked upset and said very little.

Grandfather charged in girl's cruise ship death says he’s colorblind, calls court case "inconsequential"

 

[1&2&3]

Was Grandpa known to be a drinker? IIRC, the family has denied it. However, this cruise must have been a special occasion with both sides of the family traveling with the parents and the children JMO.

If this was a Special Occasion trip that no one is admitting to, is it possible that GP and other adults had a drink or two in celebration?

Did no one notice GP’s demeanor to realize his incapability to be in charge of Chloe?

The staff or first responders should have caught it if Grandpa was inebriated . However, many drinkers are good at hiding it in a crucial position too.

Was he or wasn’t he? How were the parents not aware of his condition? There are so many unanswered questions. As time goes forward, it appears more questions arise.

I hope the cruise line stands strong and does not pay a Penney! I see no liability on
their part. A passenger, Grandpa, made a deadly decision that caused the death of his granddaughter.

 

[Safeguard]

Family of cruise ship death toddler "really not doing well" as grandfather makes first court appearance
S/bbm
"During his brief appearance, no evidence was presented as the judge allowed the prosecution and defense more time to prepare ahead of his next court date on December 17, when a trial date will be set."
snip
"speaking to CBS, the family's attorney Michael Winkleman said they are still heartbroken that the 50-year-old could be prosecuted over her death."

"The family's really not doing well. I think they're really devastated by the fact that these charges have been filed and that this case continues to go forward," Winkleman said.

"They're shocked because they think it's groundless...They certainly didn't want charges to be filed."

"Surveillance footage taken from the child's play area on the 11th floor where Chloe fell looks set to provide key evidence in the case. Despite continuous requests from the family and Winkleman, Royal Caribbean has not released the footage to the public."

"You have to assume that it shows something that really led the Puerto Rican authorities to believe there was criminal offense, so clearly there's something in that video," said Winkleman, who is not representing Anello."

So... This the first I am hearing that the family wants the video released to the public... Hmmm...