IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

[al66pine]

It looks like SA's wife attended his court hearing today. On the DM website, there is a short video of him leaving the courtroom right behind his lawyer; as they walk down the hall, an older white-haired woman in a green dress joins them. SA does not even glance in her direction as the three of them continue down the hall.

@Montrelaise bbm
Maybe I'm confused about who's who. Are you referring to first vid in this link or another link?

Grandfather accused of dropping toddler to her death from will try to prove his color blindness | Daily Mail Online Dec 17

 

[neesaki]

<sarcasm> Color blindness - that explains all those tickets for not wearing a seatbelt. </sarcasm>
Seriously though, if his color blindness is so severe it prevents him from seeing whether a window is open or not then maybe he shouldn't have a driver's license. I wonder if all the windows in his home have stickers on them? I hope he doesn't have any sliding glass doors...

Great point, yeah ! Are people who are truly color blind required to have special tests to get a drivers license? I have no idea!

 

[Montrealaise]

But what if there is no money from the civil suit? I don't think there will be.

I think if the family had ADMITTED some guilt on grandpa's part, and just wanted some partial responsibility from the cruise lines, they might have had a payoff of some kind.

But they have been so aggressive, so publicly accusatory, laying the entire blame at the feet of RCCL--basically calling them out and out murderers. ---"If it wasn't for RCCL's negligence our baby would still be alive to go see Frozen 2 on her 2nd birthday"

The aggressive nature of their publicity tour prevents RCCL from extending any conciliatory offers and agreeing to any kind of mutual deals. It would make the cruise line look like they are admitting to negligent manslaughter if they met this family halfway.

Especially if Grandpa is going to reject a deal as good as prosecutors just offered---No jail time, if he just admits to some personal responsibility for the tragic outcome.

His decision to go to trial means he wants a big payout and is willing to gamble his freedom on that.

Apparently the parents want tens of millions of dollars, and they may have promised SA a cut of that. I know it sounds irrational to reject a really good plea deal, but the prospect of coming into large sums of money can do funny things to a person's psyche.

 

[Montrealaise]

But what if there is no money from the civil suit? I don't think there will be.

I think if the family had ADMITTED some guilt on grandpa's part, and just wanted some partial responsibility from the cruise lines, they might have had a payoff of some kind.

But they have been so aggressive, so publicly accusatory, laying the entire blame at the feet of RCCL--basically calling them out and out murderers. ---"If it wasn't for RCCL's negligence our baby would still be alive to go see Frozen 2 on her 2nd birthday"

The aggressive nature of their publicity tour prevents RCCL from extending any conciliatory offers and agreeing to any kind of mutual deals. It would make the cruise line look like they are admitting to negligent manslaughter if they met this family halfway.

Especially if Grandpa is going to reject a deal as good as prosecutors just offered---No jail time, if he just admits to some personal responsibility for the tragic outcome.

His decision to go to trial means he wants a big payout and is willing to gamble his freedom on that.

Apparently the parents want tens of millions of dollars, and they may have promised SA a cut of that. I know it sounds irrational to reject a really good plea deal, but the prospect of coming into large sums of money can do funny things to a person's psyche.

 

[neesaki]

This turn of events seems to explain a lot. It seems like what Chloe's parents want is money - which SA couldn't really give - so SA is doing whatever will advance the civil case even if it's not in his own best legal interest. I found it highly unusual that Winkleman wasn't representing SA but doing many things that impact his criminal case. It seems like Chloe's parents would prefer money, but if that doesn't happen they'll do things that can send SA away to prison. He should have taken the plea deal, but it sounds like Chloe's prosecutor mom is in ultimate charge and is putting the civil litigation ahead of what is in the best legal interest of SA or else he would have taken the deal and ran, which is probably what his criminal defense attorney said but the criminal attorney isn't at the top of the pecking order.

Hey, I think you got it right. Good points for sure. Just think about it, we all know what SA did. And, everyone in the world with eyes and a brain knows as well. So.... I guess we’ll all just have to wait and see.
But, IMO, SA should go to prison for a time. He killed a baby, there was unquestionable negligence. It was horrific. An innocent baby lost her life at the hands of this moron. It’s called facing the consequences.

 

[sassyblue]

It looks like SA's wife attended his court hearing today. On the DM website, there is a short video of him leaving the courtroom right behind his lawyer; as they walk down the hall, an older white-haired woman in a green dress joins them. SA does not even glance in her direction as the three of them continue down the hall.

That isn't his wife. She attended the news conference when they announced the lawsuit and that is not the same woman. Maybe his mother?

 

[Montrealaise]

There's an interview with SA's criminal attorney on the ABC News website, where he says that SA is maintaining his innocence and is refusing to even consider a plea deal. Hope you enjoy your time in a Puerto Rican prison, Grandpa.

 

[jeena]

It seems odd that KW, AW put no blame on SA, even moments after the incident. Isn't it a knee jerk reaction to blame the person who was supposed to be safeguarding her? There were no comments like "why didn't you hold her", "why did you put her so close to the window", "why wasn't she in the pool", etc. Maybe RCCL has witnesses who heard anything KW or AW might have said to SA immediately after the incident.

 

[Montrealaise]

That isn't his wife. She attended the news conference when they announced the lawsuit and that is not the same woman. Maybe his mother?

The only members of the family I saw at the press conference were Chloe's parents, Kim and Alan Wiegand - his stepdaughter and son-in-law - and the grandfather, SA. I don't recall seeing SA's wife at the press conference. In any event, why would SA's mother (who has to be in 80s) attend the court hearing in PR instead of his wife?

 

[Chikkamma]

Apparently the parents want tens of millions of dollars, and they may have promised SA a cut of that. I know it sounds irrational to reject a really good plea deal, but the prospect of coming into large sums of money can do funny things to a person's psyche.

Is the plea deal really that good? What’s the possibility of 3 years in prison compared to mega millions of dollars?

 

[they'll get you]

Having problems with windows may affect his job.

 

[Chikkamma]

It seems odd that KW, AW put no blame on SA, even moments after the incident. Isn't it a knee jerk reaction to blame the person who was supposed to be safeguarding her? There were no comments like "why didn't you hold her", "why did you put her so close to the window", "why wasn't she in the pool", etc. Maybe RCCL has witnesses who heard anything KW or AW might have said to SA immediately after the incident.

Oh, I’m sure he’s been reamed out plenty by the family at one point or another- only in private. In public, they are “standing together, staying strong” etc.

Either SA has the most forgiving, saintlike stepdaughter the world has ever seen, or the parents are maintaining a unified public image, but doing in private what any normal parents would do- which is ream out reckless grandpa for killing their child.

There is no way every person in the extended family supports SA. We haven’t heard much from the other set of grandparents...

 

[mickey2942]

@Montrelaise bbm
Maybe I'm confused about who's who. Are you referring to first vid in this link or another link?

Grandfather accused of dropping toddler to her death from will try to prove his color blindness | Daily Mail Online Dec 17

Now, that is interesting. Achromatopsia, "color blindness" is actually not that easy to "fake" in an assessment. When a person is "malingering", or trying to fake vision loss, what they will do is say that they can't "see" anything. Even things that someone who actually has colorblindness, without any other underlying vision impairment can see.

I spent 30 years working with folks with bad vision, and could spot a faker within minutes of an assessment. Because someone who truly has bad vision tries very hard to see. And often, can get glimpses of things, even small print, with parts of the eye that may have a small "window" of better vision. A person who is malingering, always says that they can't see anything.

Pretending Color Blindness – How to Uncover It – Colblindor

 

[jeena]

Oh, I’m sure he’s been reamed out plenty by the family at one point or another- only in private. In public, they are “standing together, staying strong” etc.

Either SA has the most forgiving, saintlike stepdaughter the world has ever seen, or the parents are maintaining a unified public image, but doing in private what any normal parents would do- which is ream out reckless grandpa for killing their child.

There is no way every person in the extended family supports SA. We haven’t heard much from the other set of grandparents...

Speaking of other grandparents, where is the Shultz grandfather? SA is a step-father to KW, so is her real father (Shultz) alive or dead?
I can't believe KW said they have dinners together, if I were her and had to look at SA's face at the dinner table, I would vomit. One post I read on another site said KW always disliked SA, but who knows if it's true?

 

[sassyblue]

The only members of the family I saw at the press conference were Chloe's parents, Kim and Alan Wiegand - his stepdaughter and son-in-law - and the grandfather, SA. I don't recall seeing SA's wife at the press conference. In any event, why would SA's mother (who has to be in 80s) attend the court hearing in PR instead of his wife?

[URL="https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/publicsafety/attorney-says-grandfather-of-granger-toddler-who-fell-from-cruise/article_9390551a-2105-11ea-a100-e79184fb4df9.html"]Attorney says grandfather of Granger toddler who fell from ship is not interested in plea deal
Picture of the two at link.
[/URL]

 

[jeena]

Now, that is interesting. Achromatopsia, "color blindness" is actually not that easy to "fake" in an assessment. When a person is "malingering", or trying to fake vision loss, what they will do is say that they can't "see" anything. Even things that someone who actually has colorblindness, without any other underlying vision impairment can see.

I spent 30 years working with folks with bad vision, and could spot a faker within minutes of an assessment. Because someone who truly has bad vision tries very hard to see. And often, can get glimpses of things, even small print, with parts of the eye that may have a small "window" of better vision. A person who is malingering, always says that they can't see anything.

Pretending Color Blindness – How to Uncover It – Colblindor

I started squinting to see better on the DMV vision test (I saw it on a TV show how squinting improves your vision)so my license wouldn't be marked for corrective vision, but I get caught, lol. The DMV tester told me to stop squinting and I failed the test not to wear glasses when driving by a narrow margin, so my license is marked now.

 

[mickey2942]

I started squinting to see better on the DMV vision test (I saw it on a TV show how squinting improves your vision)so my license wouldn't be marked for corrective vision, but I get caught, lol. The DMV tester told me to stop squinting and I failed the test not to wear glasses when driving by a narrow margin, so my license is marked now.

Exactly. People who have problems with their vision, struggle to see. They work at it.

People malingering, just say, "I can't tell". Every single answer. Boom.

 

[Chikkamma]

Let me see if I have this straight...

If this goes to trial, is the defense going to be that SA randomly chose the ONLY open window in an entire wall of closed windows, didn’t understand that a guardrail is a universal symbol of precaution, didn’t interpret the 1ft distance of the guardrail from the window as an additional indicator of precaution, proceeded to put his granddaughter above AND OVER the guardrail (per David Begnaud), then didn’t notice the 2inches of window with the handle still in the frame (since the window can’t be slid open 100%), didn’t notice the absence of tint in the frame in front of him (compared to the other windows), didn’t notice the stifling humidity, didn’t feel the wind on his face, and did not hear the sounds from the loading dock below?

Have I missed anything?

 

[they'll get you]

Maybe a jury would work in his favour. All it would take is a couple agreeing that windows that open 11 storeys up is considered dangerous. It could be that simple.

 

[al66pine]

Color Blindness & Indiana Drivers License?
From just skimming BMV: Vision Screening I see references to required vision acuity testing but nothing re testing/screening for color vision.
If SA has a form of colorblindness, I'm not sure it would have prevented him from getting Indiana DL, at least not in recent years (if ever).