IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #4

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  • #901
Respectfully s/b/bm
The bolded is the only thing relevant really. imo. All toddlers are top heavy.

Perhaps I'm just being overly sensitive about the inference that she looks like she has a disability. I don't understand why that would matter. She looks like her mom to me.

I can assure you that I didn’t think in terms of a disability at all, but rather as a noticeable difference that might have been small factor in SA losing his grip and dropping her. It simply crossed my mind and I didn’t comment on it until @IceIce9 got pushback for mentioning it. While we should be sensitive to unkind or bullying comments about disabilities (all too frequent nowadays IMO), that wasn’t evident to me in the the comment or subsequent discussion. But I respect your right to see it differently and I’m sorry if it came across that way unintentionally.

Ultimately, the reason Chloe dropped to her death was because her grandfather held her out the window. She never should have been in that position at all.
 
  • #902
Are we perhaps looking at a different video? The side view video I’ve watched (shot from his right side facing the Squeeze bar) shows him lift her through the open window over his head in one motion. I don’t see him sitting her on the railing even for a moment. I don’t see Chloe again after SA puts her past the window frame. What I do see is SA’S elbow coming back inside, indicating (to me) that he is possibly holding her with the other arm. After moving sort of in and out several times with his other arm outside, eventually he falls backward to the deck floor.
Video Releases Of Toddler Who Fell Out Of Grandpa's Arms On Cruise Ship • The Hollywood Unlocked
Can you actually see the railing (from the side view)? For the life of me I can't. Maybe it's my old eyes that are missing it. I can see everything else you describe but I can't spot the railing.

In the video shot from behind I do see SA's arm move back and I can see Chloe reaching forward with at least one hand.
https://video.fymy1-1.fna.fbcdn.net...=36a5d62be897695f9c460d361b6875cf&oe=5E66D171
Video Releases Of Toddler Who Fell Out Of Grandpa's Arms On Cruise Ship • The Hollywood Unlocked
 
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  • #903
Can you actually see the railing? For the life of me I can't. Maybe it's my old eyes that are missing it. I can see everything else you describe but I can't spot the railing.

In the video shot from behind I do see SA's arm move back and I can see Chloe reaching forward with at least one hand.
https://video.fymy1-1.fna.fbcdn.net...=36a5d62be897695f9c460d361b6875cf&oe=5E66D171
Video Releases Of Toddler Who Fell Out Of Grandpa's Arms On Cruise Ship • The Hollywood Unlocked

No, I don’t see the railing, but we know from still photos previously posted that it’s there. I just don’t see SA pausing to set Chloe on on a railing or even on the edge of the window before lifting her overhead out the window. So, to me, the railing is irrelevant.
 
  • #904
I thought I read that these released videos are copies & not as clear as the ones the Cruise line have turned over.
MOO
Yeah, I haven't found any article expressly saying that but I bet the leaked videos are poor copies. That's why I think the prosecution has clearer ones and probably video from additional angles.

At this point regardless of where SA sat Chloe IMO the family's attorney is either doing a "Hail Mary" play in hopes of winning the lawsuit or else better video shows something we're missing. Both the defense and prosecution are claiming the video proves their assertions. Both can't be true. MOO.
 
  • #905
Can you actually see the railing? For the life of me I can't. Maybe it's my old eyes that are missing it. I can see everything else you describe but I can't spot the railing.

In the video shot from behind I do see SA's arm move back and I can see Chloe reaching forward with at least one hand.
https://video.fymy1-1.fna.fbcdn.net...=36a5d62be897695f9c460d361b6875cf&oe=5E66D171
Video Releases Of Toddler Who Fell Out Of Grandpa's Arms On Cruise Ship • The
.
I can’t see railing but know it is there because that is what SA leans over. I think the side video would have shown Chloe’s white hat if she had been sitting on the wooden rail.

The rail is as close as SA could get to window without going under rail. Btw. I was shocked at the length of video compared to what I’d read about its length.
 
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  • #906
Are we perhaps looking at a different video? The side view video I’ve watched (shot from his right side facing the Squeeze bar) shows him lift her through the open window over his head in one motion. I don’t see him sitting her on the railing even for a moment. I don’t see Chloe again after SA puts her past the window frame. What I do see is SA’S elbow coming back inside, indicating (to me) that he is possibly holding her with the other arm. After moving sort of in and out several times with his other arm outside, eventually he falls backward to the deck floor.
Video Releases Of Toddler Who Fell Out Of Grandpa's Arms On Cruise Ship • The Hollywood Unlocked
And lets not forget that SA himself, originally admitted that to PR authorities on the scene.

"Police in Puerto Rico initially said Anello told officers he lost his grip while holding the girl outside the window on the 11th deck, the Associated Press reported"
 
  • #907
If she was “top heavy” and bobbed her large head forward while SA was holding her outside the window, could it have been enough to cause him to lose his hold on her?
I don’t know if it would have been enough, but the thought occurred to me that it might have. But any wiggling or struggling could have been enough too. It was a phenomenally stupid thing for him to do, in any case, with absolutely no thought given to Chloe’s safety.

Looking at the side view clip, the moment when I could not see SA's elbow, I'm guessing he had his arms outstretched holding Chloe. He would lose strength in his arms the further out his elbows are from his body, and if he bent down some more....you'd have to be quite strong to carry that weight, wiggly or not.......
 
  • #908
I can’t see railing but know it is there because that is what SA leans over. I think the side video would have shown Chloe’s white hat if she had been sitting on the wooden rail.

The rail is as close as SA could get to window without going under rail. Btw. I was shocked at the length of video compared to what I’d read about its length.
I wish the video was clearer. The railing is relevant IMO because the civil lawsuit complaint states:
20. Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games. Mr. Anello then lifted Chloe up onto the railing and held Chloe while she leaned forward to bang on the glass that Mr. Anello and Chloe thought to be in front of them. As Chloe leaned forward, however, there was no glass in the frame in front of her, and she slipped from Mr. Anello’s arms, falling through the open pane and down approximately 150 feet below onto the Pier in San Juan, resulting in her death.
Complaint - Wiegand vs Royal Caribbean Cruises LTD - LMAW, PA
And reporter David B also reported SA sat Chloe on the railing:
They walk over to the wall of windows where Anello appears to look over the railing, through the open window. Anello picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing, and they appear to lean over together looking out over the port.

Then he re-adjusts and sits Chloe on the railing, still facing the port. They lean over again and she disappears from the frame.
Harrowing surveillance video captures 1-year-old's fatal fall off cruise ship

So IMO the railing plays an important role in determining what happened, both in the criminal case and the civil case. If what's being claimed is a lie then the reporter will have damaged his credibility. But the attorney will be risking his license to practice law.
 
  • #909
I would take that article with a grain of salt. US main stream media have gotten many details wrong. Judging from his body language at the press conference, I do not believe AW had yet seen the video. When asked (at said press conference) if the parents had viewed the video, AW didn’t say a word but shook his head no almost in disgust and choked up (face turning red, eyes watering, involuntary swallowing). I’m no body language expert but I believed him. This was before the video was leaked. He may have seen it by now though.

"The family waited until they saw it to file the lawsuit"

This new find (thank you, MsMarple) jumped out at me because the family was asked at the last press conference if they'd seen the video. KW seemed to hesitate at that question. Even though she indicated that no, she hadn't, I wasn't sure about that. Chikkamma, I agree that so many articles make mistakes, but I think this one may be accurate because it is very specific about this point. But either way, I agree that by now at least one of the parents, probably both, has seen the videos. They may have even seen more videos than we have, because the defense attorney probably has everything now.

I think about how traumatic the day it happened and the days following were for Chloe's parents. They had just boarded hours ago, were far away from home and on a ship. All was fine and then suddenly they find out that their daughter just fell from the ship. They had to want to rush to her side; that was 11 stories away. Then they went to the hospital. In between all of that, they had 2 sets of in-laws and their son there. And SA being the cause of this whole thing. They had to talk to ship personnel and figure out moment to moment what to do next. They had to get off the ship and go to a hotel and stay in PR for several days until authorities released Chloe's body. They had to figure out what kind of attorneys were needed if any and make funeral arrangements including transport of Chloe. And so much more I'm sure including being asked to be interviewed by the police, plus still dealing with everyone else's loss and emotions and input as well.

But most of all they had to do all this stuff while enduring the kind of trauma that most people will never experience - processing this nightmare that happened to their toddler. I'm sure that's just a small part of what they've dealt with. I feel terrible for them. They are putting on a brave face, but unless they are saints, they will be dealing with rage and heartbreak for a long time. I remember so well when my daughter was that little and precious. If I had been the parents, I don't know how I would have been able to function.

Once I was halfway across the world and my small child had a medical emergency and was rushed to surgery. I didn't speak the language and the medical practices were very different, to put it mildly. I was even told parents were not allowed to be with the children in the hospital (fortunately I got to stay anyway and the doctors did a great job). Her father, who learned this by phone long distance, was very distressed and in complete shock. When it's your child especially, everything is that much harder when you're a long way from home and not familiar with anyone who is in charge of helping you.

I'm just saying these parents have been through hell. I think they were great parents to Chloe and obviously adored her. I hate that this has happened to them and her brother. It is such a bizarre and horrible thing that happened. It still has yet to make any sense to me. I saw the video again today and she most certainly was being rocked in some kind of way outside of the window. The bartenders, appears to be about 3 of them, were just a few feet away facing where this happened.
 
  • #910
I wish the video was clearer. The railing is relevant IMO because the civil lawsuit complaint states:
20. Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games. Mr. Anello then lifted Chloe up onto the railing and held Chloe while she leaned forward to bang on the glass that Mr. Anello and Chloe thought to be in front of them. As Chloe leaned forward, however, there was no glass in the frame in front of her, and she slipped from Mr. Anello’s arms, falling through the open pane and down approximately 150 feet below onto the Pier in San Juan, resulting in her death.
Complaint - Wiegand vs Royal Caribbean Cruises LTD - LMAW, PA
And reporter David B also reported SA sat Chloe on the railing:
They walk over to the wall of windows where Anello appears to look over the railing, through the open window. Anello picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing, and they appear to lean over together looking out over the port.

Then he re-adjusts and sits Chloe on the railing, still facing the port. They lean over again and she disappears from the frame.
Harrowing surveillance video captures 1-year-old's fatal fall off cruise ship

So IMO the railing plays an important role in determining what happened, both in the criminal case and the civil case. If what's being claimed is a lie then the reporter will have damaged his credibility. But the attorney will be risking his license to practice law.

The complaint is a lie in stating that SA held Chloe up to bang on the window, when he clearly knew (from the video of him leaning through the open window) that there was no glass. Basically, everyone is lying and they all have damaged their credibility. All I see is a single motion of SA lifting Chloe over his head and out the window without pausing to put her on the railing for any reason. She was outside the ship in midair. How can they dispute the video?
 
  • #911
I'm sure you're right, BetteDavisEyes. I would hope such a video, which would presumably capture Chloe's entire fall and the impact, will not be released to the public, ever. I feel that it isn't my business to see that, and I wouldn't be able to bear it or unsee it in my mind. I think we all would feel the same.
However, for the purpose of evidence in the investigation, I hope such an exterior view will end any lawyer posturing, and curtail the years of dragging out the quest for appropriate justice.
As to the Wiegand family, I would say IMO seeing such a video is their right, but I hope they choose not to see it. I know if it were my child or grandchild, it would rip every cell from my body.
This was such a great post! I like your style...
And you're right, if such a video does exist no one should have to see it. I wouldn't even watch it, (and I've taken heat for somethings I have watched. I'm the type, I need to see, with my own eyes, almost every single thing for myself ).

But I would not watch that. Googling for the clearest video from inside, I came across a pic of Chloe on the ground, not the tent one, just a white sheet covering her... remains.

Just by the configuration of that sheet, I can tell you, no one wants to see that video.
 
  • #912
I wish the video was clearer. The railing is relevant IMO because the civil lawsuit complaint states:
20. Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games. Mr. Anello then lifted Chloe up onto the railing and held Chloe while she leaned forward to bang on the glass that Mr. Anello and Chloe thought to be in front of them. As Chloe leaned forward, however, there was no glass in the frame in front of her, and she slipped from Mr. Anello’s arms, falling through the open pane and down approximately 150 feet below onto the Pier in San Juan, resulting in her death.
Complaint - Wiegand vs Royal Caribbean Cruises LTD - LMAW, PA
And reporter David B also reported SA sat Chloe on the railing:
They walk over to the wall of windows where Anello appears to look over the railing, through the open window. Anello picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing, and they appear to lean over together looking out over the port.

Then he re-adjusts and sits Chloe on the railing, still facing the port. They lean over again and she disappears from the frame.
Harrowing surveillance video captures 1-year-old's fatal fall off cruise ship

So IMO the railing plays an important role in determining what happened, both in the criminal case and the civil case. If what's being claimed is a lie then the reporter will have damaged his credibility. But the attorney will be risking his license to practice law.
#20 on the civil suit states, “upon reaching the wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up”. Did anyone notice SA conversing with Chloe when she reached the glass? If she asked before SA got there, then why didn’t he immediately pick her up? Is this coming from SA’s account? Who knows. Maybe she asked when he was leaning out.
It seemed like he ignored Chloe when he first reached the window area and leaned out.
 
  • #913
I'm positive this child did not have macrocephaly. She's just a petite baby without a lot of baby fat on her body or her face/cheeks and that makes her (top of the) head look bigger. It's really not an uncommon appearance in thinner babies.
Sensible post. Thank you.
 
  • #914
The complaint is a lie in stating that SA held Chloe up to bang on the window, when he clearly knew (from the video of him leaning through the open window) that there was no glass. Basically, everyone is lying and they all have damaged their credibility. All I see is a single motion of SA lifting Chloe over his head and out the window without pausing to put her on the railing for any reason. She was outside the ship in midair. How can they dispute the video?

In case any viewers are unfamiliar with this case, please re-read this post. It’s essentially all you need to know.
 
  • #915
#20 on the civil suit states, “upon reaching the wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up”. Did anyone notice SA conversing with Chloe when she reached the glass? If she asked before SA got there, then why didn’t he immediately pick her up? Is this coming from SA’s account? Who knows. Maybe she asked when he was leaning out.
It seemed like he ignored Chloe when he first reached the window area and leaned out.

Not immediately. I see him bending down to her right after he leans out the window. Then he lifts her up and out the window. Of course, she may have asked to be lifted up as he arrived at the window before he looked out. We can’t hear. But he clearly leaned out the window before bending down to her and lifting her up. So, bottom line, he knew the window was open.
 
  • #916
If she was “top heavy” and bobbed her large head forward while SA was holding her outside the window, could it have been enough to cause him to lose his hold on her?
You can't really spin what you're trying to say this way. Anyone holding a baby out a window 11 stories up is insane! Her head is not the problem! (I really don't give a chit, if I'm called out by the hive mind. you're out of line with this.)
 
  • #917
All I see is a single motion of SA lifting Chloe over his head and out the window without pausing to put her on the railing for any reason. She was outside the ship in midair. How can they dispute the video?
Snipped for brevity.
From the side view , That's what I see too. From the straight ahead view it is clear he lifts her up, over his head, and sits or stands her on the railing briefly.

Then he bends over, leans out, putting her beyond the railing and then she falls.
 
  • #918
I left out one of the most obvious horrors that happened to the parents and brother - you go on a family vacation that's supposed to be a happy occasion and instead you return with one of your two children deceased. And on top of that at the hands of someone you've known since you were a child yourself in KW's case.
 
  • #919
I think about how traumatic the day it happened and the days following were for Chloe's parents. They had just boarded hours ago, were far away from home and on a ship. All was fine and then suddenly they find out that their daughter just fell from the ship. They had to want to rush to her side; that was 11 stories away. Then they went to the hospital. In between all of that, they had 2 sets of in-laws and their son there. And SA being the cause of this whole thing. They had to talk to ship personnel and figure out moment to moment what to do next. They had to get off the ship and go to a hotel and stay in PR for several days until authorities released Chloe's body. They had to figure out what kind of attorneys were needed if any and make funeral arrangements including transport of Chloe. And so much more I'm sure including being asked to be interviewed by the police, plus still dealing with everyone else's loss and emotions and input as well.

But most of all they had to do all this stuff while enduring the kind of trauma that most people will never experience - processing this nightmare that happened to their toddler. I'm sure that's just a small part of what they've dealt with. I feel terrible for them. They are putting on a brave face, but unless they are saints, they will be dealing with rage and heartbreak for a long time. I remember so well when my daughter was that little and precious. If I had been the parents, I don't know how I would have been able to function.

Bravo! Such a lovely, thoughtful post.
Thank you!
Why people are feeling the size/shape of this baby's head is relativent is beyond me, when there are such tender mercies, such as this post, to dwell upon .
 
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  • #920
The great irony here, is that Chloe probably would have been safer with a complete stranger, hanging with a kid for extra cash, tSA.
Wow... how true... in this case and this one alone, you are absolutely right, IMO.
A stranger would have protected her more than her own GF.... As true as that is, it’s also just as scary. That poor child:(
 
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