IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[MsBetsy]

Your logic does not make sense. By your reasoning, if someone throws a child into a boiling pot of water, the boiling pot of water is partially responsible.

It's not that the water is responsible.
The way I interpreted the post is that the boiling water itself poses a potential risk, depending on the actions of others.
If someone is careless and leaves a child unattended near the water and the child is burned then it is still an accident due to negligence.

Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Hi MsBetsy, thank you for your post. Which RCCL ship has inoperable windows on a pool deck and where did you find the info? Are there no windows that open on that ship? I'm asking because I've been searching online for the data on other ships and have been unable to find it. I've heard Mr Winkleman assert that other cruise lines and newer ships including the Anthem of RCCL don't have the same windows that FOTS has-whether that means inoperable, only opens 4 inches, has some kind of grid, I'm unsure, he did not specify. I've found that cabins don't have operable windows because of the danger of high seas, but that's all I've been able to find. Thank you!

I don't remember the name of the ship but I'm pretty sure it was named in the lawsuit that was posted. I read it about a week ago when it first became available. There is a picture of the area and the windows in the newer ship.
I'll see if I can go back and find it but maybe if someone finds it first they can provide a link.

Imo

 

[justbreathe]

Earlier today from friends across the pond, I read the same thing. Comment was that it looked like he picked her up. Held her out the window, Was thinking yes or no. Then did it. Other poster added he was trashed bc it’s a cruise. Referring to stumbling around by the pole.

This is what it looked like to me - Can I?Am I gonna? Really...do it? No going back.

 

[justbreathe]

RSBM

View attachment 227398
This open maintanance window was below the window that Chloe fell from. Did she feel the breeze, did she see it wasn’t glass?
Was Chloe looking out this before she was lifted up?

(I asked a staff member what it was access for maintenance and washing the windows.)
View attachment 227401
Cruise line sued by family of toddler who fell to her death from window

This lower access hatch was not open at the time of the incident. The bars are in front because it is *able* to be opened. A second safety measure for an opening that s accessible to children. (You close the hatch. You lock the hatch. You close the bars. You lock the bars. Probably
Alarmed, too.)

 

[justbreathe]

Yes, agree. However, if RCCL did change the windows after this incident, that information could be introduce for reasons other than to prove negligence, etc. So, while the court is professional minded/trained and would not consider this information to suppose/prove negligence, etc., jurors (even when properly instructed otherwise) could still likely consider it (not legally) as RCCL “admitting” the window design was flawed/needed to be changed and this may sway the verdict in favor of the plaintiff. JMO

I don’t think whether the windows are changed or not would be admissible.

 

[MsBetsy]

Hi MsBetsy, thank you for your post. Which RCCL ship has inoperable windows on a pool deck and where did you find the info? Are there no windows that open on that ship? I'm asking because I've been searching online for the data on other ships and have been unable to find it. I've heard Mr Winkleman assert that other cruise lines and newer ships including the Anthem of RCCL don't have the same windows that FOTS has-whether that means inoperable, only opens 4 inches, has some kind of grid, I'm unsure, he did not specify. I've found that cabins don't have operable windows because of the danger of high seas, but that's all I've been able to find. Thank you!

The ship is called Anthem of the Seas which has the windows that do not open.
I just found the document, but I downloaded it on January 3 so if you go back to that date maybe you can find it.
I would post it myself but I don't know how and I'm not sure I can with my phone. (Sorry!)

 

[vallie]

Just thinking about this again, what are the possible reasons for SA to stop midway between the pool area to the windows, to squat down and lean against that beam ? Is that a comfortable position to be in for any posters here ? ( I just know that it's not comfortable for me ). I'm just trying to get some insight as to what might have been going on, as Ms. Betsy said, maybe SA wasn't watching and waiting on that man to leave the window.

only reason I can think of is to get down to Chloe's level. but that only makes sense if you need to talk to her, why didn't he pick her up if he was already down there? I can imagine him telling her to stop running away or maybe he was playing tag and if he caught her she would get to "fly"

 

[MsBetsy]

only reason I can think of is to get down to Chloe's level. but that only makes sense if you need to talk to her, why didn't he pick her up if he was already down there? I can imagine him telling her to stop running away or maybe he was playing tag and if he caught her she would get to "fly"

I saw the video of him sqatting and leaning against the pole but the video is so blurry it's hard to see anything. Is he actually talking and interacting with her?
To me it looks like he just stopped and leaned against the pole to rest for a few minutes.

 

[drama_farmer]

A few things . . .

I'd like to know exactly how long SA was watching/babysitting Chloe prior to the time the video picks them up as they are walking over to that pillar. And, did they have a conversation immediately prior to leaving the H2O zone in the center of the deck? Those are just two questions of many that might help to clarify the meaning/importance of what is visible on the video(s). IMO.

If it was all Chloe's idea to leave the play area and head towards the side of the deck, it would be helpful to know (if possible) what drew Chloe away from the play area and towards the covered section of deck.

Maybe that's the last place she saw her Mom or other family members before they exited the deck,
Maybe she saw a man who resembled her father/other relatives from the back,
Maybe she heard people laughing/talking loudly/having a good time and wanted to see where all the fun was?
Maybe Mom forgot to apply sunscreen and SA told her she needed to keep out of the sun?
Maybe she did a fun thing on the splashpad and wanted to find her Mom/Dad/brother to show them?
Maybe she was feeling overly hot and naturally walked towards the shade?
Maybe another child in the play area did something that upset her?

Regardless of what drew her away from the kids play area and towards the adult area with a bar and chairs and tables, I think that the conversation at the pillar (where he is squatting and she is out of sight) is key.

I see a hot (as in body temp, lol) man who doesn't appear to have the energy to keep up with a toddler, and a man who may be anxious/looking forward to the ship actually "shoving off" from the dock to begin motoring away from land.

A man who is not used to the PR sun and humidity, a man who is looking for a way to cool off and perhaps get an idea of how much longer the ship will be tied to the dock.

As he squats down against the pillar, I imagine (remember, this is just me making stuff up) him saying "Hey Chloe, Grampa is really hot and tired. Let's go in the shade over by the windows. Maybe we can see the people untying those big ropes you saw when we came on board," or "Let's see if the crew is pulling in the gangplank," or "Let's watch the crew load those big boxes into the bottom of the ship," or "Let's see how high up in the air we are."

In other words, I think that he was hot, and searching for a way to cool off. That might explain his interest in the open window, as well as the amount of time he spent there. Using my own life experiences and what is visible on the video, I think the above might be a logical explanation of why he was so interested in that open window. As far as why he felt it was reasonable to heft a toddler over a guard rail and drop her out that window, well, I'm just as flummoxed as everyone else.

IMO

 

[katydid23]

The mother who held her son over the railing of the African Painted Dog exhibit, dropping him into the exhibit sued the zoo and the zoo settled. The little boy was torn to shreds.

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrEeB2z2Che6HQAyAQPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByNXM5bzY5BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMzBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1579764020/RO=10/RU=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/parents-of-2-year-old-mauled-by-wild-dogs-settle-pittsburgh-zoo-lawsuit//RK=2/RS=kNwuBkJzy97RUP5kUyCVRQ5oVBk-

However, the mother who dangled her son and dropped him into the Cheeta exhibit was charged. And get this......she was a childcare worker...go figure.

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrEeB0V2ShesXIAvAcPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1579764117/RO=10/RU=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mother-who-dropped-child-cheetah-exhibit-childcare-worker-n340846/RK=2/RS=F4GERs1Gv60o7fvp3TDrwlokoEY-

I think in these cases, the Zoo's are in a more precarious position that the cruise liners.

Kids come to the zoo , specifically, to look into the exhibits and see the animals. So it does make a little more sense that a parent would lift up a child to help them get a good view.

There is no reason that an 18 month old needs to see a loading dock, IMO.

 

[they'll get you]

This lower access hatch was not open at the time of the incident. The bars are in front because it is *able* to be opened. A second safety measure for an opening that s accessible to children. (You close the hatch. You lock the hatch. You close the bars. You lock the bars. Probably
Alarmed, too.)

No it wasn’t opened but the bars allow air flow, it has no glass.
My point was did Chloe go to that to look out and feel the breeze.
IIRC it has a padlock.

 

[Lawsmygame2]

RSBM

View attachment 227398
This open maintanance window was below the window that Chloe fell from. Did she feel the breeze, did she see it wasn’t glass?
Was Chloe looking out this before she was lifted up?

(I asked a staff member what it was access for maintenance and washing the windows.)
View attachment 227401
Cruise line sued by family of toddler who fell to her death from window

Wow...Interesting. I haven’t seen or noticed this before. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Lawsmygame2]

Q

This lower access hatch was not open at the time of the incident. The bars are in front because it is *able* to be opened. A second safety measure for an opening that s accessible to children. (You close the hatch. You lock the hatch. You close the bars. You lock the bars. Probably
Alarmed, too.)

Question: Was there any mention of this lower hatch by MW in the civil suit he filed? If not, it is probably because it would hurt the case because it shows that RCCL takes precautionary safety measures to insure their passengers safety as evident by the bars/locks on a window that is at ground level. Kinda like the railing in front of windows that open. . As I stated in another post, I haven’t seen this before.

 

[they'll get you]

Game show.

$500,000,000.00 question.

Which windows are opened?

This is a very hard question so take your time to think.

 

[gogrannypop]

Game show.

$500,000,000.00 question.

Which windows are opened?

This is a very hard question so take your time to think.


View attachment 227465
View attachment 227466

Oh my goodness! I just realized I'm colorblind!

 

[max99]

Oh my goodness! I just realized I'm colorblind!

per colorblind
"There are three main kinds of color blindness, based on photopigment defects in the three different kinds of cones that respond to blue, green, and red light. Red-green color blindness is the most common, followed by blue-yellow color blindness. A complete absence of color vision —total color blindness – is rare."

Personally, I've yet to be diagnosed as color blind but I see blues and purples differently than others...the windows on these cruise ships have varying degrees of brightness - not color - and the whole color issue didn't come up from the SA camp until mentioned on this site....talk about a "red" herring!

Red Herring - Examples and Definition of Red Herring

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

per colorblind
"There are three main kinds of color blindness, based on photopigment defects in the three different kinds of cones that respond to blue, green, and red light. Red-green color blindness is the most common, followed by blue-yellow color blindness. A complete absence of color vision —total color blindness – is rare."

Personally, I've yet to be diagnosed as color blind but I see blues and purples differently than others...the windows on these cruise ships have varying degrees of brightness - not color - and the whole color issue didn't come up from the SA camp until mentioned on this site....talk about a "red" herring!

Red Herring - Examples and Definition of Red Herring

No wonder this case stinks out loud, it's FISHY as all get out!!!

 

[Pammi]

A 9.5B company (RCCL) generally doesn’t make stupid safety mistakes. There’s an entire team that ensures compliance with maritime law. This vessel isn’t permanently docked so maritime law applies. 42” for any railing is compliant.

Additionally the passenger agreement I signed for my upcoming trip clearly disclosed any sitting, standing, leaning or breaching a guard rail in any way violates the terms you’ve agreed to and the cruise line isn’t responsible for any incident or injury.

in my opinion, these videos by RCCL are just the first of a multi pronged defense strategy.

And they’re going to stall until the criminal case is determined... why buy that liability...

MOO

 

[Chikkamma]

Game show.

$500,000,000.00 question.

Which windows are opened?

This is a very hard question so take your time to think.


View attachment 227465
View attachment 227466

I can’t tell. The only way to know is to throw a child out of one.

 

[wwb]

One thing I noticed about the crew member opening the window is that he turned a bit to the side which allows for a slightly longer reach. Kind of like how it appears SA shifts her to one hand before she goes out the window.

(Did anyone see that RCCL had a fatality in PR today? Oasis of the Seas.) David Begnaud on Twitter