IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[MsBetsy]

I dunno. I would think his liability insurance would be sky high after so many speeding tickets and seat belt violations.

Do you remember how many speeding tickets he received and how long it's been since the last one?
Sorry to ask again but I'm just trying to get a sense of any past reckless behavior and I haven't found an answer yet and can't find the article that has this information.
Thanks.

 

[Pak31]

CW's parents say they haven't seen the video, but I wonder whether any other family members have - such as her paternal grandparents, her biological maternal grandfather or her aunts and uncles. After all, the video is accessible to anyone who knows their way around the internet. If they have, that may explain the radio silence from the family and their lawyer since the release of the video.

Were the paternal grandparents on the cruise? Or KW’s bio dad and his wife? I thought there were two sets of grandparents with them.

 

[Pak31]

I

I don't understand why some posters are saying SA picked her up overhead and threw her out the window, when the behind video shows SA lifting her, standing her up on the right side of him on the railing, then he switches her to his left side. Now CW appears to be further away from him, possibly sitting on or being held by SA near the metal window frame. With all the antics SA went through handling CW, I don't think her killing was intentional, otherwise SA would probably have thrown her out the window right after he lifted her up. SA admitted to standing her up, sitting her down, holding her with one arm, etc.

I’ll have to watch both videos again. The video from the side looks like henflings her out the window. The one from behind was hard for me to see. Either way, even if the was just setting her on the ledge it was fast and furious.

 

[Chikkamma]

He was probably hoping not, but I do believe if any of the family has viewed the video, it is SA. His narrative with David Begnaud pretty well matches up with what happens on the video - except for the part where he, for some strange reason, chooses "the one window that was open in a wall of glass".

Did we watch the same video? His narrative to David Begnaud did absolutely not match up with the video imo. For starters, he did not have her on the railing the entire time. It seems you believe that Chloe was sitting on the railing when she fell, but I very clearly see her being held beyond the railing when she fell (closer to, if not at or past, the window ledge). David Begnaud saw this as well per his statement, “We see you hold her on the railing, then OVER the railing”.

In the moment right before Chloe falls, what makes you think Chloe was still sitting on the railing? All I see are SA’s arms extended and Chloe’s little body suspended somewhere beyond the railing.

 

[drama_farmer]

snipped for brevity

Hence the shrugs by Winkleman. "I set my kids up on stuff all the time," he answered, when asked about the wisdom of setting a child on a high railing, regardless if you thought there was glass there or not.

bbm
This strikes me as not the best argument to use to tip the responsibility scale towards the cruise line RCCL.

Wink is saying that he does something "all the time" and seems to be inferring that no harm came to his children as a result.

Just like. . .
Hundreds (thousands?) of children and toddlers cruise with their families on RCCL, and none of them have "disappeared" out a window.

Or, his observation can be challenged in another way, as well:
When you "set your kids up on stuff all the time" how many of your hands/arms are in use to ensure their safety? What other common sense precautions do you put in place to keep the child safe from the forces of gravity?

Do you employ "baby gates" or other safety barriers to protect children from dangers in their environment?
Say, for instance, a baby gate at the top of a stairway?
Yes? How many signs do you affix to that baby gate, and what do they say?
Is there one that reads: "Notice, this safety feature is in place to protect children from a potential hazard. Please do not pick up children and place them beyond the safety barrier."

Or, CAUTION, please be aware that this safety barrier is not permanently affixed to the structure of the home. Check to make sure the baby gate is in place before allowing child to bang on it.

I could go on. . . IMO

 

[Forever Young]

Do you remember how many speeding tickets he received and how long it's been since the last one?
Sorry to ask again but I'm just trying to get a sense of any past reckless behavior and I haven't found an answer yet and can't find the article that has this information.
Thanks.

Someone here did a background check and found it. It is somewhere in the beginning pages of this thread.

 

[MsBetsy]

Did we watch the same video? His narrative to David Begnaud did absolutely not match up with the video imo. For starters, he did not have her on the railing the entire time. It seems you believe that Chloe was sitting on the railing when she fell, but I very clearly see her being held beyond the railing when she fell (closer to, if not at or past, the window ledge). David Begnaud saw this as well per his statement, “We see you hold her on the railing, then OVER the railing”.

In the moment right before SA let go of Chloe, where are you seeing sitting on the railing? What I see in the moment right before Chloe falls are SA’s arms extended and Chloe’s little body suspending past the railing.

Yes, that's the way it was described by the reporter on CBS.
If I remember correctly, he said Chloe walks straight to the window with her grandpa following close behind, then he looks over the railing, then lifts her over the railing and seats or places her on the ledge before she disappears out of sight.
In the video you can tell he is lifting her over the railing because he lifts her so high.

Imo

 

[Forever Young]

Gee, I wonder what the mother of said kids thinks about all that.

Yeah. Some tricky reporter won't trip Winkleman up. He often deflects hard questions like that. Presto Chango, I'm not going to answer that.

 

[MsBetsy]

Someone here did a background check and found it. It is somewhere in the beginning pages of this thread.

Ok, thanks. I must have missed that. All this time I thought he only had tickets for not wearing a seat belt.
This is the first I've heard of him having several speeding tickets. I'm surprised the media has not mentioned it.

 

[Forever Young]

Did we watch the same video? His narrative to David Begnaud did absolutely not match up with the video imo. For starters, he did not have her on the railing the entire time. It seems you believe that Chloe was sitting on the railing when she fell, but I very clearly see her being held beyond the railing when she fell (closer to, if not at or past, the window ledge). David Begnaud saw this as well per his statement, “We see you hold her on the railing, then OVER the railing”.

In the moment right before Chloe falls, what makes you think Chloe was still sitting on the railing? All I see are SA’s arms extended and Chloe’s little body suspended somewhere beyond the railing.

Yes, she had to go OVER the railing, which is why he lifted her so high. But then (when viewed from the back) he then lifts her up onto the railing.

At this point in the video, you can see how much taller Sam is compared to Chloe at his right side. He shifts her to his left side, and still appears to be holding her while she sits on the railing.

IMO, he would not have been able to stoop over the railing far enough to hold her on the window ledge. The ledge is considerably lower than the railing.

Again, this is from the back.

The side view really does not allow us to see much of the railing because of the support brackets under the railing and the support beams that reach floor to ceiling. But you can just make out the railing, behind the support beams.

These brackets blend with the window frames, giving the illusion that the frames stick out farther than they really do. Someone else previously pointed that out, and was pretty much ignored. That is not the window frames, it is support brackets beneath the railing, and support beams that reach to the ceiling that we are seeing in the side view.

It has been my belief for a while that his arms and head were not able to reach past the window frame to the outside.

The same for Chloe. I could be wrong, but it appears to me that she also was not past the outer window frame, until she fell after being pitched forward by SA's rocking motion, as seen from behind.

His explanation, in the DB interview, is that he is trying to reach farther to tap the glass. He bends forward at the waist, Chloe also bends at the waist while seated on the railing.

I only see SA's forearms resting on the railing, hanging past the railing, and do not see him holding her straight out. MOO

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Yes, she had to go OVER the railing, which is why he lifted her so high. But then (when viewed from the back) he then lifts her up onto the railing.

At this point in the video, you can see how much taller Sam is compared to Chloe at his right side. He shifts her to his left side, and still appears to be holding her while she sits on the railing.

IMO, he would not have been able to stoop over the railing far enough to hold her on the window ledge. The ledge is considerably lower than the railing.

Again, this is from the back.

The side view really does not allow us to see much of the railing because of the support brackets holding the it. But you can just make out the railing, behind the support beams.

These brackets blend with the window frames, giving the illusion that the frames stick out farther than they really do. Someone else previously pointed that out, and was pretty much ignored. That is not the window frames, it is support brackets beneath the railing, and support beams that reach to the ceiling that we are seeing in the side view.

It has been my belief for a while that his arms and head were not able to reach past the window frame to the outside.

The same for Chloe. I could be wrong, but it appears to me that she also was not past the outer window frame, until she fell after being pitched forward by SA's rocking motion, as seen from behind.

His explanation, in the DB interview, is that he is trying to reach farther to tap the glass. He bends forward at the waist, Chloe also bends at the waist while seated on the railing.

I only see SA's forearms resting on the railing, hanging past the railing, and do not see him holding her straight out. MOO

They're on this dream cruise, so much to see and do...and he is compelled to "bang on the glass" of this cruise ship window for exactly what purpose? Was he trying to get someone's attention? I just really don't get it. That's probably because it's not even true, just one of SA's many confusing and senseless statements concerning the incident. During his ridiculous interview, He only begins the (fake) crying AFTER he asks for a glass of water. What is that all about, some actor trick? Then he peeks up at the interviewer to gauge his reactions to his emotional breakdown. This guy is a clown. An evil clown. JMOO

 

[Chikkamma]

Yes, she had to go OVER the railing, which is why he lifted her so high. But then (when viewed from the back) he then lifts her up onto the railing.

At this point in the video, you can see how much taller Sam is compared to Chloe at his right side. He shifts her to his left side, and still appears to be holding her while she sits on the railing.

IMO, he would not have been able to stoop over the railing far enough to hold her on the window ledge. The ledge is considerably lower than the railing.

Again, this is from the back.

The side view really does not allow us to see much of the railing because of the support brackets holding the it. But you can just make out the railing, behind the support beams.

These brackets blend with the window frames, giving the illusion that the frames stick out farther than they really do. Someone else previously pointed that out, and was pretty much ignored. That is not the window frames, it is support brackets beneath the railing, and support beams that reach to the ceiling that we are seeing in the side view.

It has been my belief for a while that his arms and head were not able to reach past the window frame to the outside.

The same for Chloe. I could be wrong, but it appears to me that she also was not past the outer window frame, until she fell after being pitched forward by SA's rocking motion, as seen from behind.

His explanation, in the DB interview, is that he is trying to reach farther to tap the glass. He bends forward at the waist, Chloe also bends at the waist while seated on the railing.

I only see SA's forearms resting on the railing, hanging past the railing, and do not see him holding her straight out. MOO

We shall agree to disagree.

The rocking motion I see is not a sedentary one (i.e. where he is rocking Chloe from a stationary sitting position on the rail). What I see are SA’s elbows exiting our line of sight in the side view video and moving forward several inches, then backwards several inches, then forwards several inches... a back and forth motion (not just a rocking one) meaning he was bring Chloe closer (or past) the window ledge, then back closer to the rail, closer to the ledge, then closer to the rail, etc.... then she falls...

 

[Forever Young]

IMO Bergand's description of holding her "over" the railing does not mean "above" the railing but "past" the railing. Of course, at the beginning she did have to get over the railing to be first stood, then seated on the railing.

Noting a discrepancy in how long Anello was holding Chloe, Begnaud said, "the grandfather actually looks out the window for about eight seconds. He reaches down, he picks Chloe up, and he holds her over the railing for nearly 25 seconds."

CNN - Breaking News, Latest News and Videos

 

[Forever Young]

We shall agree to disagree.

The rocking motion I see is not a sedentary one (i.e. where he is rocking Chloe from a stationary sitting position on the rail). What I see are SA’s entire arms moving forward several inches, then backwards several inches, then forwards again... a back and forth motion, meaning he was bring Chloe closer(or past) the window ledge, then back to the rail, closer to the ledge, then she falls...

One thing we can agree on, the video is darned hard to see, and most people do seem to think that his head breached the opening and that he was holding Chloe past the opening to open air.

I've watched the thing probably 50 times minimum and the first impression may not be correct because of the support beams. I do believe it is critical to SA's defense that he was not, in fact, able to breach the outer window frame.

 

[al66pine]

SA's Driving Record
@MsBetsy From an Indiana court website, looks like:
Seat belt violations ... x 6...................................................... 1996 to 2013
Speeding.................. x 2 ....75 in 55 zone; 70 in 55 zone ....1998 & 2015
CrimMisdmr .............. x 1 .....(I could not tell) ........................ 1999
I believe in 3 diff counties/courts: Porter, Lake Superior, Newton.
^ Info from----
site to check Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase
Enter his name, select boxes for criminal & infractions . Hit search. Results:
Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase
^ will probably timeout shortly.^ Hope this helps.
{{ETA: IIRC, someone posted here, above court database has an entry or two for civil cases w him as a party. I'm not going back to check, but maybe you /someone can, if so inclined.}}
[QUOTE"MsBetsy, post: 15693465, member: 227504"]Ok, thanks. I must have missed that. All this time I thought he only had tickets for not wearing a seat belt.
This is the first I've heard of him having several speeding tickets. I'm surprised the media has not mentioned it.[/QUOTE]

 

[Forever Young]

They're on this dream cruise, so much to see and do...and he is compelled to "bang on the glass" of this cruise ship window for exactly what purpose? Was he trying to get someone's attention? I just really don't get it. That's probably because it's not even true, just one of SA's many confusing and senseless statements concerning the incident. During his ridiculous interview, He only begins the (fake) crying AFTER he asks for a glass of water. What is that all about, some actor trick? Then he peeks up at the interviewer to gauge his reactions to his emotional breakdown. This guy is a clown. An evil clown. JMOO

I see a guy who is just kind of rough with a little girl. Manhandling, as you used to hear the word used more in the past than it is now.

Perhaps, in the not so distant past, banging on the glass elicited that infectious giggle that she had as a baby, and that everyone loves to hear.

He seems to me like he no longer knows how to entertain her now that she is nearing two, growing and getting brighter everyday.

I agree. So many things to do, and all he can think of is how fun it is to bang on glass. MOO

 

[Forever Young]

SA's Driving Record
From an Indiana ct website, looks like
Seat belt violations ... x 6...................................................... 1996 to 2013
Speeding.................. x 2 ....75 in 55 zone; 70 in 55 zone ....1998 & 2015
CrimMisdmr .............. x 1 .....(I could not tell) ........................ 1999
I believe in 3 diff counties/courts: Porter, Lake Superior, Newton.
^ Info from----
site to check Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase
Enter his name, select boxes for criminal & infractions . Hit search. Results:
Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase
^ will probably timeout shortly.^ Hope this helps.
[QUOTE"MsBetsy, post: 15693465, member: 227504"]Ok, thanks. I must have missed that. All this time I thought he only had tickets for not wearing a seat belt.
This is the first I've heard of him having several speeding tickets. I'm surprised the media has not mentioned it.

[/QUOTE]

Legally, I don't think the outcomes of other cases can be brought into this one. I do think it totally supports the idea that he was a reckless person, bull in a china shop type, thinks he's above the law. Those laws are meant for lesser people who are not as careful as he is.

 

[Forever Young]

SA's Driving Record
From an Indiana ct website, looks like
Seat belt violations ... x 6...................................................... 1996 to 2013
Speeding.................. x 2 ....75 in 55 zone; 70 in 55 zone ....1998 & 2015
CrimMisdmr .............. x 1 .....(I could not tell) ........................ 1999
I believe in 3 diff counties/courts: Porter, Lake Superior, Newton.
^ Info from----
site to check Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase
Enter his name, select boxes for criminal & infractions . Hit search. Results:
Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase
^ will probably timeout shortly.^ Hope this helps.
[QUOTE"MsBetsy, post: 15693465, member: 227504"]Ok, thanks. I must have missed that. All this time I thought he only had tickets for not wearing a seat belt.
This is the first I've heard of him having several speeding tickets. I'm surprised the media has not mentioned it.

[/QUOTE]


The misdemeanor charge brings to mind KW saying something to the effect that she didn't believe SA should be charged in this "misdemeanor" offense. She mentions "misdemeanor" twice. Really minimizes what happened there. JMO, I found that to be in poor taste.

 

[fabvab]

PR Crim Case vs. SA. Expert Witness. Argue? RCCL's Role?
@Forever Young re bbm #1 below. Respectfully, gotta disagree w part of post. Easy to argue w experts (but not cheap). PR just needs to get its own experts, if that has not already happened. One to review the scene, another to review SA's med records, then testify to different interpretations or conclusions.

Re bbm #2 below. RCCL does not get to submit their own expert testimony (or other evd.) in crim case, at least not directly. Of course, RCCL may provide info re window design, construction, installation, and more to PR for PR's use in crim case.
jmo

I'm thinking the prosecution may erect a model of the window and surrounding area true to size/exact measurements with the wooden railing and a window like the one SA looked through. They could then use this model along with SA's measurements to show where SA's head would have been when he was bent over the wooden rail and looking out the window before picking up Chloe. And someone to testify how much breeze would have been coming in the open window.

 

[Forever Young]

I'm thinking the prosecution may erect a model of the window and surrounding area true to size/exact measurements with the wooden railing and a window like the one SA looked through. They could then use this model along with SA's measurements to show where SA's head would have been when he was bent over the wooden rail and looking out the window before picking up Chloe. And someone to testify how much breeze would have been coming in the open window.

That's about the only way, IMO, for a juror to get an accurate depiction of what happened.