IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[they'll get you]

December 17, 2018

“Last year, almost 27 (26.7) million people took a cruise holiday, and there were nine overboard incidents involving passengers. This equates to about one incident per seven million passengers,” the Cruise Lines International Association (CLIA), the industry’s trade organization and lobbying arm, told Quartz in an emailed statement.

Thanks to minimum railing heights of one meter (39 inches) and other structural barriers, CLIA insists that man-overboard incidents (known in the industry as MOBs) are only “a result of an intentional or reckless act” and there are “no known cases of someone acting responsibly who has accidentally fallen over the railing of a cruise ship.”

People fall off cruise ships with alarming regularity. What can be done to stop it?

 

[oviedo]

There's just no way to recreate the winds through the window, though. You can't know exactly how windy it was and what direction it was blowing from.

Personally, if I'm on the jury, it comes down to whether or not they can prove any part of SA went out the window. I do think he put his hands on the window sill, but if he assumed there was glass there he could have put his hands down in a way that they would not go out the window. Grabbing the near side of the sill with his thumbs.

I will also say, though, that there are plenty of cues that that window is open. For him to have missed all of them does make me think he must have been very drunk. So does that help him, or hurt him? Isn't looking after a child while severely drunk negligence? I seem to recall a case where a caregiver was arrested for as much.

If there are eyewitnesses (I think there are) they can testify to what they saw and felt(breeze) - I know I can remember how strong it was in December when I went (different RCL ship and different port) and would not have a problem testifying to that
JMO
When will they be taking depositions I wonder?

 

[Lawnguylander1964]

Wouldn't the captain have the weather data with wind knots, etc. for that day?

Also, aren't their flags and stuff on and around the ship? Somebody has to have video to show how the flags were blowing at the time.

 

[Andreee]

If there are eyewitnesses (I think there are) they can testify to what they saw and felt(breeze) - I know I can remember how strong it was in December when I went (different RCL ship and different port) and would not have a problem testifying to that
JMO
When will they be taking depositions I wonder?

All I know is that if I was one of the close by passengers to the tragedy as it unfolded, that I am an avid people watcher (and former reporter). I would've been watching the grandfather like a hawk when he lifted her up to the window! As a worrywort and compulsive type, I would've cringed and maybe even gone over to check on things. It looked like there were several people seated nearby, and it will be interesting to see what they have to say!

 

[Wehwalt]

Answers to questions asked:

Yes, they can ask potential jurors whether they have been on RCL or any cruise line and about their experiences.

Unless something unusual happens, depositions will not be taken until after the motion to dismiss is resolved. The transcripts won't necessarily be public record.

 

[oviedo]

All I know is that if I was one of the close by passengers to the tragedy as it unfolded, that I am an avid people watcher (and former reporter). I would've been watching the grandfather like a hawk when he lifted her up to the window! As a worrywort and compulsive type, I would've cringed and maybe even gone over to check on things. It looked like there were several people seated nearby, and it will be interesting to see what they have to say!

Yes I agree and I’ve wondered if any of those that saw the first 10 seconds of his action went to tell a crew member ? If so that will come out in the witness list. jmo

 

[oviedo]

Answers to questions asked:

Yes, they can ask potential jurors whether they have been on RCL or any cruise line and about their experiences.

Unless something unusual happens, depositions will not be taken until after the motion to dismiss is resolved. The transcripts won't necessarily be public record.

Hmm not always true - we are filing a motion to dismiss together with a notice of taking deposition in a civil lawsuit tomorrow - they can happen pretty close if that’s the strategy - that’s our goal anyway
JMO

 

[Wehwalt]

Hmm not always true - we are filing a motion to dismiss together with a notice of taking deposition in a civil lawsuit tomorrow - they can happen pretty close if that’s the strategy - that’s our goal anyway
JMO

I didn't say it was always true. Perhaps I should have said "unless someone files a motion in this case".

 

[Forever Young]

Answers to questions asked:

Yes, they can ask potential jurors whether they have been on RCL or any cruise line and about their experiences.

Unless something unusual happens, depositions will not be taken until after the motion to dismiss is resolved. The transcripts won't necessarily be public record.

I might add here that jury selection has to be approved by both sides.

One of the first questions asked is whether or not a potential juror has heard about this case, and more importantly, have they drawn any conclusions.

I was a juror some years ago on a murder trial in Illinois. We were told not to read any newspapers, listen to any radio, or televison accounts of testimony given in open court. And we were not to discuss what we had heard with anyone, even each other, until all the testimony had been given.

 

[oviedo]

I didn't say it was always true. Perhaps I should have said "unless someone files a motion in this case".

It’s Florida so if those transcripts are efiled we will get to see them thanks to @Kindred who is getting the docs for us
JMO

Answers to questions asked:

Yes, they can ask potential jurors whether they have been on RCL or any cruise line and about their experiences.

Unless something unusual happens, depositions will not be taken until after the motion to dismiss is resolved. The transcripts won't necessarily be public record.

 

[Forever Young]

I might add here that jury selection has to be approved by both sides.

One of the first questions asked is whether or not a potential juror has heard about this case, and more importantly, have they drawn any conclusions.

I was a juror some years ago on a murder trial in Illinois. We were told not to read any newspapers, listen to any radio, or televison accounts of testimony given in open court. And we were not to discuss what we had heard with anyone, even each other, until all the testimony had been given.

I might add also that it seems that a lot of good people don't want to be a juror. People who work just would rather not take off work for it. Others are uncomfortable with maybe the subject matter, or having to be the one to render a judgement. Good jurors are hard to find.

 

[drama_farmer]

Does anyone familiar with the case believe that a sign warning people about windows possibly being open would have been noticed by SA?

IMO, he was not very observant, and missed real, physical clues that most people would notice I can't imagine mere words would have saved Chloe from his negligence

 

[Forever Young]

Does anyone familiar with the case believe that a sign warning people about windows possibly being open would have been noticed by SA?

IMO, he was not very observant, and missed real, physical clues that most people would notice I can't imagine mere words would have saved Chloe from his negligence

No, I don't think SA would have read any warning sign that day. He seemed to be in a world of his own.

I posted this link today about a case in California that bears some similarities to this one. There are various case laws concerning the duty of care when it comes to windows; most particularly to hotels, but mention of case law involving apartments and daycare is also mentioned.

There are also some major differences as well as similarities in these cases from this particular one, but still very enlightening as to what kind of issues can be brought up when it comes to windows.

I will post it again if anyone wants a bit of reading on a cold winter's night, while we await updates from Mr. Winkleman.

FindLaw's California Court of Appeal case and opinions.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

View attachment 227036
Is this what he was thinking after he put his head out?

She has both of her arms around the boy. And the window doesn’t open!
I’d get TO if I wrote what I think. But it’s funny, too.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

If there are eyewitnesses (I think there are) they can testify to what they saw and felt(breeze) - I know I can remember how strong it was in December when I went (different RCL ship and different port) and would not have a problem testifying to that
JMO
When will they be taking depositions I wonder?

US Weather people keep all kinds of records like this. Wind, speed, date, time, direction. This part is easy.

 

[they'll get you]

Does anyone familiar with the case believe that a sign warning people about windows possibly being open would have been noticed by SA?

IMO, he was not very observant, and missed real, physical clues that most people would notice I can't imagine mere words would have saved Chloe from his negligence

Maybe a voltage shock might have made him aware.
The opening windows are framed in a highlighted blue paint/border and handles, so imo it was so very apparent to me.

 

[they'll get you]

Wouldn't the captain have the weather data with wind knots, etc. for that day?

Also, aren't their flags and stuff on and around the ship? Somebody has to have video to show how the flags were blowing at the time.

Absolutely!

 

[MassGuy]

Does anyone familiar with the case believe that a sign warning people about windows possibly being open would have been noticed by SA?

IMO, he was not very observant, and missed real, physical clues that most people would notice I can't imagine mere words would have saved Chloe from his negligence

I think it’s irrelevant whether he would have noticed them or not.

I recall someone posted his numerous traffic violations over the years. That makes it clear to me that rules weren’t made for this guy.

If he saw any signs at all, he’d simply ignore them.

If one buys his story, he was lifting his granddaughter up to “bang on the glass,” which defies both common sense and common courtesy.

He’s the kind of guy you see with with a child, and find yourself wondering “where the hell are this kid’s parents?”

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Maybe a voltage shock might have made him aware.
The opening windows are framed in a highlighted blue paint/border and handles, so imo it was so very apparent to me.

Really? First I’ve heard about the highlighted border and handles. And earlier read today about the window being one third closed.
Two huge pieces I’ve missed along the way.
Anything else I’ve missed?

 

[katydid23]

But surely mother wouldn’t have left him in charge if he was that drunk unless she gave him strict instructions to stay where she left him and Chloe.

Right, but I wouldn't want someone drunk watching my baby by the wading pool either. A baby can drown in very shallow waters.