IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[Kindred]

From the Indy Star

Family attorneys say cruise line's story of toddler's death is 'physically impossible'

"Winkleman's filing says that during the ship inspection, it was determined that the inside edge of the handrail was 19 inches from the window opening.

"To have physically held Chloe out the window, Mr. Anello would have required much longer arms than he had," Winkleman writes. "Chloe only fell when Mr. Anello tragically leaned her forward to bang on what he believed was a fixed glass panel — as they had done many times before at Chloe’s brother’s hockey games.""

Dude, you literally submitted photographs of your colleague easily putting his hand out of the window in order to measure it, without needing to even lean over the railing or struggle to reach. He just stands there and DOES IT. You seriously expect anyone to believe that if the guy with the doll hadn't straightened his arms out in front of him that doll wouldn't have been out the window and that SA could have done the same?

Not to mention didn't SA admit that he kept leaning forward trying to "push Chloe closer to the window" in his interview? Anyone know how to get a text transcript of the interview from the network/show so we can actually add his statements to our pile of info?

*edit - spelling

 

[fabvab]

Q


Question: Was there any mention of this lower hatch by MW in the civil suit he filed? If not, it is probably because it would hurt the case because it shows that RCCL takes precautionary safety measures to insure their passengers safety as evident by the bars/locks on a window that is at ground level. Kinda like the railing in front of windows that open. . As I stated in another post, I haven’t seen this before.

View attachment 227658

The puple line is mine but otherwise untouched.

This photo keeps bothering me. There's something... odd about the tape measure. Most of the numbers are illegible for me but the ones below his fingers are still dark and defined enough that you can make out enough to work out measurements. But once you get above his fingers the tape seems to squish and distort. Is he physically bending the tape back to make it look like they're the same height from the front??? Why does it suddenly seem to get narrow?

I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone measure a person with a tape measure like shown in the pic!

 

[Montrealaise]

But is he stupid? Hee.



Even though the article is deeply slanted in favor of SA (ex. elderly and color blind) the comments are still vastly in support of the cruise line.

Doctor on cruise ship recalls finding toddler's body after her grandfather 'dropped her | Daily Mail Online

I can't believe the parents have the nerve to say that the cruise line is defaming SA.

 

[Kindred]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone measure a person with a tape measure like shown in the pic!

Did you see how he measures how tall a chair is? He puts the measuring tape in front of it. Not at the back where you can put the measurement at the actual top of the chair.



See! It's totally 32 inches! And then there's... whatever this is:



Again, instead of putting it flush to the metal to see how high it goes, or turning the chair sideways and doing it that way he does... whatever this is, just letting the tape measure kinda flop wherever by his foot and not letting you see exactly what point on the chair he's actually measuring. There's a lot of questionable measuring techniques shown. Like this one:



I don't even know what this is trying to show. Are they going to try and claim the bolted table is only 18 1/4 inches away from the window? And yet:



Clearly further than 18 1/4 inches because it's much further than the rail that is 18 inches from the windows so ???

And then there's the random image of them measuring a sticker on the windo... wait there's already stickers on the windows??

 

[SuziQ]

I think they're trying to fudge how tall tape-measure-guy is compared to the SA actor. SA is standing in the foreground, TMG is slightly behind him. The tape is being bent. Probably so they can defend the fact that TMG is clearly able to reach the window in one of the pics they submitted.

Also, check out the pics of the actor "standing" on the rail. The two pics are slightly different and you can only see the front shoe. The numbers seem weird there, too.

It is just like the hunting pics where hunters are way behind their kill, to make it look bigger. We have all seem the video. SA has no problem bending over the railing. The actor seems much shorter than SA, and has very short legs. And what is with him standing so far away from the railing with his butt sticking out?

 

[mheido67]

Did you see how he measures how tall a chair is? He puts the measuring tape in front of it. Not at the back where you can put the measurement at the actual top of the chair.

View attachment 227711

See! It's totally 32 inches! And then there's... whatever this is:

View attachment 227710

Again, instead of putting it flush to the metal to see how high it goes, or turning the chair sideways and doing it that way he does... whatever this is, just letting the tape measure kinda flop wherever by his foot and not letting you see exactly what point on the chair he's actually measuring. There's a lot of questionable measuring techniques shown. Like this one:

View attachment 227712

I don't even know what this is trying to show. Are they going to try and claim the bolted table is only 18 1/4 inches away from the window? And yet:

View attachment 227714

Clearly further than 18 1/4 inches because it's much further than the rail that is 18 inches from the windows so ???

And then there's the random image of them measuring a sticker on the windo... wait there's already stickers on the windows??

View attachment 227713

I’d imagine, based on all the photos of measurements of chairs, stools and tables around the windows that they intend to make some case that all those things represented a climb and fall hazard for children to bolster the claim that the windows presented a clear danger which RCCL should have recognized and addressed.

 

[mheido67]

It is just like the hunting pics where hunters are way behind their kill, to make it look bigger. We have all seem the video. SA has no problem bending over the railing. The actor seems much shorter than SA, and has very short legs. And what is with him standing so far away from the railing with his butt sticking out?

It’s like OJ trying to get his hand in the glove while spreading his fingers apart!

 

[whatsnext]

I’d imagine, based on all the photos of measurements of chairs, stools and tables around the windows that they intend to make some case that all those things represented a climb and fall hazard for children to bolster the claim that the windows presented a clear danger which RCCL should have recognized and addressed.

Could be, but there is still the fact that SA picked her up and put her in harm' s way, she didn't climb anything to fall out of the ship.

 

[Kindred]

I’d imagine, based on all the photos of measurements of chairs, stools and tables around the windows that they intend to make some case that all those things represented a climb and fall hazard for children to bolster the claim that the windows presented a clear danger which RCCL should have recognized and addressed.

True, but that image doesn't show the measurement from the edge of the table to the rail. It shows the edge of the table to some indiscriminate point in space where the two rulers meet. If he wanted to try and claim Chloe could have made it from the fixed table to the railing he should have measured from the fixed table to the rail, which they do in another pic and it's "22 1/2" inches. But they do this weird two rules thing again with a barstool:


It's clearly not measuring straight back to the windows, but instead, again, some random point in space where the rulers meet that is off to an angle. But, ya know, gotta make sure that bar is safe for little kiddos to play on!

 

[MsBetsy]

Could be, but there is still the fact that SA picked her up and put her in harm' s way, she didn't climb anything to fall out of the ship.

Maybe they are trying to show that any young child could climb the chair to reach an open window and fall out? In order to prove their point that windows that open are a potential hazard?

 

[mheido67]

Could be, but there is still the fact that SA picked her up and put her in harm' s way, she didn't climb anything to fall out of the ship.

Very true. Based on the arguments in the motions I think it all ties back to whether RCCL should have been aware of a dangerous situation without there having been due notification of such. MW trying to build the case that there were hidden dangers all around the area. Basically trying to show that deck 11 was an accident waiting to happen. Just my opinion.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

What kind of BS is Daily Mail trying to pull? Are they in bed with the Wiegands and their corrupt attorney?

Latest article says the following..."They say there was not a single sign, decal or safety notice alerting Anello that the window he was lifting Chloe up against so she could bang on the glass as she loved to do at her older brother's ice hockey games, could be slid open: a breach of industry-wide safety laws."

DM repeating what Winkleman said. Not DM opinion.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I think the witnesses will be a Perry mason moment in the trial - I can’t wait to see the notice of trial and witness list / thank heavens this is in a Florida court !!!
JMO
And get some rest before your flight !

I watched figure skating until 11:00 last night and was too tired to stay up and try to read court documents. They look long and are probably tedious reading, so I won't use precious shipboard internet minutes to study them. I will appreciate summary posts here to keep up with the case while I'm away. Member comments are much more entertaining and interesting than court documents

 

[Kindred]

Very true. Based on the arguments in the motions I think it all ties back to whether RCCL should have been aware of a dangerous situation without there having been due notification of such. MW trying to build the case that there were hidden dangers all around the area. Basically trying to show that deck 11 was an accident waiting to happen. Just my opinion.

Except that they also provided the ships posted warnings about supervising your children. Clearly a child that is being left to climb on tables and bar stools that it could fall and hurt itself on is not being supervised. And no offense to Mr. Winkleman, but if it was "physically impossible" for a fully grown adult to reach outside of a window over a distance of 18 inches, then he's proved it's physically impossible for an 18-month-old to cross the 22 1/2 inches of space between the table bolted to the deck and the railing with her whole body.

 

[mheido67]

Except that they also provided the ships posted warnings about supervising your children. Clearly a child that is being left to climb on tables and bar stools that it could fall and hurt itself on is not being supervised. And no offense to Mr. Winkleman, but if it was "physically impossible" for a fully grown adult to reach outside of a window over a distance of 18 inches, then he's proved it's physically impossible for an 18-month-old to cross the 22 1/2 inches of space between the table bolted to the deck and the railing with her whole body.

Agreed. I really don’t think all the recreation photos they willingly submitted are going to help them, and could actually hurt them. SA also signed a document acknowledging that it was prohibited to sit, climb, stand or place anything on or over any interior or exterior ships railing. A prohibition he proceeded to violate shortly after boarding the ship.

 

[In vino veritas]

That’s because the people writing the comments are just like us (they have common sense).

Are you ever supposed to sit a child on a railing? No
I sincerely doubt RCCL is going to settl

Are you ever supposed to stand a child on a railing? Hell no.

Are you ever supposed to do what this guy did? Look no further than the result.

If Royal Caribbean pays this family a cent, then common sense is dead.

That’s because the people writing the comments are just like us (they have common sense).

Are you ever supposed to sit a child on a railing? No.

Are you ever supposed to stand a child on a railing? Hell no.

Are you ever supposed to do what this guy did? Look no further than the result.

If Royal Caribbean pays this family a cent, then common sense is dead.

I sincerely doubt RCCL is going to settle with this family. If that was their inclination, a settlement would have been arranged very early on, shortly after the incident. Given the extremely sensitive nature of this case, one involving the death of a child, the fact RCCL did not settle and remained silent during this whole media onslaught by MW , leads me to believe they have a very strong case proving the culpability of SA. I’ve got to believe there is additional, conclusive evidence to support RCCL.

 

[whatsnext]

I sincerely doubt RCCL is going to settle with this family. If that was their inclination, a settlement would have been arranged very early on, shortly after the incident. Given the extremely sensitive nature of this case, one involving the death of a child, the fact RCCL did not settle and remained silent during this whole media onslaught by MW , leads me to believe they have a very strong case proving the culpability of SA. I’ve got to believe there is additional, conclusive evidence to support RCCL.

Exactly. I don't think that a huge company like RCCL would risk losing their good reputation by fighting an accusation they can't disprove. JMO

 

[JulieBEMT]

Did you see how he measures how tall a chair is? He puts the measuring tape in front of it. Not at the back where you can put the measurement at the actual top of the chair.

View attachment 227711

See! It's totally 32 inches! And then there's... whatever this is:

/ATTACH]

Just WOW! I hadn't looked too closely at all of the pictures yet. If a child hadn't lost her life, and a cruise line wasn't being forced to defend itself, they would be hilarious! Do these idiots really think people are that stupid? Do they also think that RCCL doesn't already have the measurements of every distance, height and piece of furniture on that ship? That no thought or research went into the height of those windows and tables? The architects and designers didn't just guess. And then there's the fact that RCCL has the time and budget to do actual high tech measurements? I would love to be sitting in the courtroom when the platiffs present these photos as evidence. With this one, look at the amount of distance between the left of the chair and the bottom of the tape measure.

EBM - ooops, first time posting a pick and I put it in the quote box. Sorry.

 

[In vino veritas]

snipped and BBM

He's going for 'the feels', just like why they keep posting all the sweet pics to the media. It's to silently tug at the heart strings like: "Look judge. Look how cute she was. How absolutely adorable she was... UNTIL SHE STEPPED ON THAT FLOATING DEATH TRAP OWNED BY THE DEFENDANTS!! Deny the motion to dismiss, judge, do it for her. Who cares how it happens, don't you think they deserve kajillions of dollars because they lost someone so sweet?"

snipped and BBM

He's going for 'the feels', just like why they keep posting all the sweet pics to the media. It's to silently tug at the heart strings like: "Look judge. Look how cute she was. How absolutely adorable she was... UNTIL SHE STEPPED ON THAT FLOATING DEATH TRAP OWNED BY THE DEFENDANTS!! Deny the motion to dismiss, judge, do it for her. Who cares how it happens, don't you think they deserve kajillions of dollars because they lost someone so sweet?"

I agree 100% with you. And this is the reason I hope the courts dismiss this lawsuit.
If this goes to trial, there is a possibility some bleeding hearts will swing in favor of the family and RCCL will be forced to pay

 

[JerseySleuth17]

If it is physically impossible to lean out the window as currently configured that would seem to bolster the claim by RCCL that the operable windows in no way posed a hidden danger wouldn’t it? It would seem to demonstrate that the windows and railing were in fact doing exactly what they were intended to do, provide ventilation to the covered outdoor pool deck areas while keeping people away from the openings. SA recklessly disregarded the prohibition of placing things (or people) on or over the railings and himself put CW into a dangerous situation just the same as if he’d stood her on any other railing at the perimeter of the ship.

THIS COMMENT IS SPOT ON! You are exactly right, there is a railing and the windows slant outwards both for aesthetics and to deter people from leaning out them, dropping items out them, etc. It took a lot of effort for SA to pick CW up and extend his arms forward enough so she could even reach the opening of the window. If he even just held her back close to his body and propped her on the railing she would not have fallen through the window. At one point he seemed to only be holding her with one arm. I have been on at least 20 cruises, there is ZERO way you don't know the window is open. If this ever went to a trial, and they trot 12 jurors to a cruise ship 11 stories up and show them an open versus closed window SA is going to prison, b/c no reasonable person would think the window was closed.