IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[justbreathe]

I think it was awkward/uncomfortable for him to get down to her level under the rail, so he lifted her up to a more comfortable position for himself. Unfortunately up and over the safety rail.

This would make sense except for the “up and over the safety rail” part.

He could have lifted her and sat her on the railing facing him with her legs still within ship. He could have looked at the view with her side saddle on the rail. He could have been clutching her tightly against him. These are all actions of a tired person who just wants to have the kid still for a few without having to hold their full weight.

Lifting her over the rail - there is literally no reason to do that except to “fly” and make the baby either laugh or be scared (depending on the baby), which could be a stupid, stupid mistake having nothing to do with banging on glass or a missing window. OR to purposefully intend to drop her.

I think the “I thought the window was closed” part came when he realized in the elevator that they might be taking him straight to jail.

And now that is what he is sticking with.

Because he thinks to have to tell the parents and his wife at this point that he is just a dummy who did a dumb thing and killed a baby would make everything worse.

So now, they will sue...and lose. SA will probably go to jail if he doesn’t take deal.

And the family will be able to nurse their denial by making SA a big giant martyr victim of Big Corporation.

But SA will always know the truth.

It will be interesting to see what everyone’s stance is a few years, or decades from now.

I have a feeling AW’s denial will fade first.

KW may never be able to accept what really happened.

 

[justbreathe]

Exactly. She could walk right under the railing and up to the glass to bang on it if she wanted to. If that was the “reason” for picking her up, it is clearly false.

Also, from the first PDF: (1)the window did not have a “single, adequate indication” (such as a decal or a warning) to indicate it was open;

If there was a decal or warning on the window, he wouldn’t have seen it because the window wasn’t there! It was open! So even if there was a warning on the actual window, the opening wouldn’t have a warning. You can’t put a warning on air/open space.

I said this too! Like what, just a warning suspended magically in mid air - “no glass here.” Maybe one of those hologram things...

 

[justbreathe]

In December on my RCCl cruise I seem to recall they have added bar height tables and chairs sprinkled throughout the ship - that would account for higher chairs IMO
FWIW I think their whole recreation is amateurish and it’s clear to me the firm isn't spending resources because they likely know their only hope is a settlement- otherwise they cannot be serious about this right?
JMO

I think MW and his firm are in it for the publicity. “We’ll say anything for our clients, even if it doesn’t make sense logically!”

 

[justbreathe]

Snipped and BBM

Decals are to warn people of the presence of glass - so they don’t walk into a door or whatever. Because the default human perception of transparency is air.

Not, “Oh it is so clear here - there must be glass.”

Which is why the entire windows are *tinted* not marked with decals. Clear = open space. Not clear = glass.

MW and SA have the whole concept backwards.

 

[Lawsmygame2]

I don’t know if this has been mentioned before on this thread so here goes:

Something that has been bothering me...

Even if SA believed, because of his “colorblind” condition or whatever reason, wouldn’t Chloe have known there was not window since she didn’t have the same condition as the grandfather? So what was she thinking/fear in that moment? It breaks my heart to think about it.

Another question...were there any statements, etc., to the effect that Chloe leaned forward to bang on the glass and that’s when she fell out the window...?

 

[Lawsmygame2]

This is a clip where SA states he initially thought she felt in front of him and not out the window.

Twitter

 

[justbreathe]

Maybe he had a sick feeling in his throat and thought he would vomit. Who knows????? ETA: WHO CARES????!?
The point is he puts her out there. And she’s dead. So if he was drunk, overheated, tired, angry, hungry, thirsty it does not matter what was in his mind. His mind controlled his actions. His actions set off the chain of events that DIRECTLY lead to her death. His actions were: he leaned out, then back in, then picks her up, sticks her outside. Whether he dropped her, let her wriggle out of his grip or lost his balance, let her go, got winded, lost consciousness, got color blinded from the sun, couldn’t feel his finger tips to feel the glass, bc he has polyneuropathy, whatever actions he took, he was the only actor there. But for him, none of this would have happened. BUT FOR. Legal language pinning it on SA.

As far as the negligent Homicide charge, what he was thinking is irrelevant.

Like best case scenario - this is a simple case of negligence. Someone breaks the rules, someone else gets hurt, even though there was no intention there.

His thoughts matter if we are talking about the worst case scenario.

And everything SA has said explaining his thoughts thus far has sounded, I’ll say - *implausible.*

I wonder if he will ever testify, and if so will his explanations be more coherent than his press interview?

 

[Lawsmygame2]

I don’t know if this has been mentioned before on this thread so here goes:

Something that has been bothering me...

Even if SA believed, because of his “colorblind” condition or whatever reason, wouldn’t Chloe have known there was not window since she didn’t have the same condition as the grandfather? So what was she thinking/fear in that moment? It breaks my heart to think about it.

Another question...were there any statements, etc., to the effect that Chloe leaned forward to bang on the glass and that’s when she fell out the window...?

Item 20 in the original complaint...

20. Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games. Mr. Anello then lifted Chloe up onto the railing and held Chloe while she leaned forward to bang on the glass that Mr. Anello and Chloe thought to be in front of them. As Chloe leaned forward, however, there was no glass in the frame in front of her, and she slipped from Mr. Anello’s arms, falling through the open pane and down approximately 150 feet below onto the Pier in San Juan, resulting in her death.

https://www.lipcon.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/DE-1-Wrongful-Death-Complaint.pdf

 

[Kindred]

This would make sense except for the “up and over the safety rail” part.

He could have lifted her and sat her on the railing facing him with her legs still within ship. He could have looked at the view with her side saddle on the rail. He could have been clutching her tightly against him. These are all actions of a tired person who just wants to have the kid still for a few without having to hold their full weight.

Lifting her over the rail - there is literally no reason to do that except to “fly” and make the baby either laugh or be scared (depending on the baby), which could be a stupid, stupid mistake having nothing to do with banging on glass or a missing window. OR to purposefully intend to drop her.

I think the “I thought the window was closed” part came when he realized in the elevator that they might be taking him straight to jail.

And now that is what he is sticking with.

Because he thinks to have to tell the parents and his wife at this point that he is just a dummy who did a dumb thing and killed a baby would make everything worse.

So now, they will sue...and lose. SA will probably go to jail if he doesn’t take deal.

And the family will be able to nurse their denial by making SA a big giant martyr victim of Big Corporation.

But SA will always know the truth.

It will be interesting to see what everyone’s stance is a few years, or decades from now.

I have a feeling AW’s denial will fade first.

KW may never be able to accept what really happened.

I'm interested to see what happens with SA if the civil suit gets dismissed. If the chance of getting any money from the cruise line gets taken off the table does anyone think he will he give in and confess to try to get out of jail time? Or just continue this martyr act of "But I thought it was closed! It wasn't my fault!"

 

[justbreathe]

MW uses some very strong, inflammatory wording in those documents. RCCL has been very discreet during the past 6 months. Only after the lawsuit was filed by the Wiegand did RCCL respond, as they are compelled to do.
I believe RCCL is going to alter their stance going forward, and this whole case is going to get uglier than it already is.
I am not in the legal field, but MW seems to me to be really pushing the envelope regarding legality and morality.

MW is displaying himself as a lawyer that will do whatever is necessary for his clients. Best advertisement ever.

I think RCCL will be very careful in what they say and how they say it, but that the necessity of showing SA to be the true cause will only increase. He better be ready for some pressure.

 

[justbreathe]

Imo an accident has happened and RCC will have some blame......SA had the ability to drop Chloe out.

He’d have the ability to drop Chloe over any one of the other railings onboard as well but that’s not the point.
Unfortunately.

Well that makes no sense. Of course a grown adult man had the ability to toss a baby to their death.

He didn’t even need an open window, or a balcony. He could just throw her on the floor. So that would be - the floor’s fault because she had the ability to hit it?

 

[Forever Young]

Actually, of you look at close ups of SA, you can see he doesn't look that old. It's his grey hair, bad teeth and weight that age him. His skin isn't as lined or wrinkled as an older mans would be.

I agree. Also, if you look at the photo of him with his wife (said to be past 60) and Chloe with the hearing protection headphones on, IMO, you can see the difference in their ages. While I agree that 51 is not "old", it is also not exactly "young".

 

[justbreathe]

Item 20 in the original complaint...

20. Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games. Mr. Anello then lifted Chloe up onto the railing and held Chloe while she leaned forward to bang on the glass that Mr. Anello and Chloe thought to be in front of them. As Chloe leaned forward, however, there was no glass in the frame in front of her, and she slipped from Mr. Anello’s arms, falling through the open pane and down approximately 150 feet below onto the Pier in San Juan, resulting in her death.

https://www.lipcon.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/DE-1-Wrongful-Death-Complaint.pdf

Yes, it is Chloe’s fault she died. If only she didn’t lean forward to bang on the glass. That wasn’t there.

ETA And I like how MW and SA know what Chloe was thinking.

 

[justbreathe]

Item 20 in the original complaint...

20. Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games. Mr. Anello then lifted Chloe up onto the railing and held Chloe while she leaned forward to bang on the glass that Mr. Anello and Chloe thought to be in front of them. As Chloe leaned forward, however, there was no glass in the frame in front of her, and she slipped from Mr. Anello’s arms, falling through the open pane and down approximately 150 feet below onto the Pier in San Juan, resulting in her death.

https://www.lipcon.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/DE-1-Wrongful-Death-Complaint.pdf

I'm interested to see what happens with SA if the civil suit gets dismissed. If the chance of getting any money from the cruise line gets taken off the table does anyone think he will he give in and confess to try to get out of jail time? Or just continue this martyr act of "But I thought it was closed! It wasn't my fault!"

I suspect nothing will happen re/ the civil suit until the criminal charges are settled.

 

[Kindred]

I don’t know if this has been mentioned before on this thread so here goes:

Something that has been bothering me...

Even if SA believed, because of his “colorblind” condition or whatever reason, wouldn’t Chloe have known there was not window since she didn’t have the same condition as the grandfather? So what was she thinking/fear in that moment? It breaks my heart to think about it.

Another question...were there any statements, etc., to the effect that Chloe leaned forward to bang on the glass and that’s when she fell out the window...?

BBM

I don't think she had the thought process to figure out if there was or wasn't a window. Think about small children around pools. They know what a pool is but they don't think that it's the vest/floaties that keep them above the water, so they will walk right into them with no concept of what is going to happen to them, just that they like to be in swimming pools. When they went over to the windows there was glass below, I don't think her brain would think there wasn't when he picked her up and put her on that ledge.

But once she realized there wasn't anything there and was outside and unsupported I would think she would have gotten scared and squirmed trying to get out of that position and someplace safe, because that's what 18-month-olds do when they want to be put down, they squirm until you set them down. I honestly can't understand how or why the parents support and keep defending him.

 

[BeachSky]

I don’t know if this has been mentioned before on this thread so here goes:

Something that has been bothering me...

Even if SA believed, because of his “colorblind” condition or whatever reason, wouldn’t Chloe have known there was not window since she didn’t have the same condition as the grandfather? So what was she thinking/fear in that moment? It breaks my heart to think about it.

Another question...were there any statements, etc., to the effect that Chloe leaned forward to bang on the glass and that’s when she fell out the window...?

It’s on record ...
From Ship Doctor
SA said....I dropped my baby
nothing about fell.
The fell part is coming from Winkleman IMO .

MOO

 

[Kindred]

MW is displaying himself as a lawyer that will do whatever is necessary for his clients. Best advertisement ever.

I think RCCL will be very careful in what they say and how they say it, but that the necessity of showing SA to be the true cause will only increase. He better be ready for some pressure.

Yep, including destroying your stepfather's criminal defense and turning your suffering into a never-ending public spectacle. Sign me up!

 

[Forever Young]

As far as the negligent Homicide charge, what he was thinking is irrelevant.

Like best case scenario - this is a simple case of negligence. Someone breaks the rules, someone else gets hurt, even though there was no intention there.

His thoughts matter if we are talking about the worst case scenario.

And everything SA has said explaining his thoughts thus far has sounded, I’ll say - *implausible.*

I wonder if he will ever testify, and if so will his explanations be more coherent than his press interview?

It really does matter what he was thinking, IMO. They will have to prove that he was aware of the danger. Awareness is one of the criteria of the negligent homicide charge, and what he was thinking will be very hard to prove, IMO.

 

[Kindred]

I suspect nothing will happen re/ the civil suit until the criminal charges are settled.

Depends which court moves faster. The civil case doesn't even need to make it to the first status conference if the judge agrees with the motion to dismiss that there's no merit the complaint. Meanwhile, unless SA takes a plea deal (not looking likely), or for some reason, the prosecutor decides to drop the charges (not likely at all) the criminal case will keep plodding on.

 

[justbreathe]

I had included the part about the refusal of the sedative because it had been claimed since early on that he was "so distraught he'd had to be sedated" as reasons that he didn't give an official statement to the police or comply with drug/alcohol testing. I think Winkleman may have pushed this narrative early on in the press tours but I can't remember where, but I know it was discussed multiple times.

But now that we know definitively he wasn't hysterical to the point they needed to sedate him, he was still rational enough to say no I don't want anything, it makes me wonder why not. Sedatives can react badly to some meds. So here's a thought, we're pretty sure they had just flown into PR earlier that same day though we still haven't gotten that 100% confirmed anywhere. What if SA had taken something like xanax or another similar type med to deal with flight anxiety or something like that earlier that he was still possibly under the influence of? Something that could have impaired him just enough to do something stupid like put his granddaughter out the window?

Which would make a heck of a lot more sense than: “I wanted to bang on glass. Because it’s fun.”