IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[justbreathe]

Considering she was in front of that window over 30 seconds it's entirely possible someone on the dock took a video, cell phone cameras are everywhere and thirty seconds is a VERY long time to notice something, get your camera and start filming. I'm pretty sure RCCL has an ace up their sleeve and in the meantime they are giving SA rope to hang himself, so to speak.

I never even thought of another passenger videoing him! Could be.

I think they are also giving MW enough to convince his clients to stop.

 

[justbreathe]

"Not, well, you saw Carnival had different windows so that means you knew yours were “bad.”

But that's basically what Plaintiffs are claiming, isn't it?

Sadly, yes. That appears to be one of their points.

 

[Forever Young]

He was escorted off the floor. He had no other time to inspect the window after she fell, so his statement about the window being open rather than saying there was a broken window was based on what he knew before she was dropped.

IMO, it was easy to discern, after she fell, that the window was open. He claims he did not know it was open before she fell.

 

[justbreathe]

So if a child could climb onto a chair or table to the window, then they could also do the same to get onto and over the many railings on the ship as well. Do you think then Winkleman is also planning to sue RCCL for having these open balconies and railings? Just curious how far he’s planning to take his dog and pony show.

Technically, Winkleman isn’t suing anyone. The Wiegands are and he is representing them.

So unless Winkleman finds himself a client who went over the balcony and wants to sue, he’ll just have to wait.

Probably about a minute.

 

[Forever Young]

No, but it proves he knew it was a window and not a “solid wall of glass.”

After she fell, he knew it was not a solid wall of glass.

 

[justbreathe]

IMO, it was easy to discern, after she fell, that the window was open. He claims he did not know it was open before she fell.

Yes that is what he claimed - he didn’t know it was open.

Not that he didn’t even know it was window and thought it was a solid glass wall.

 

[mheido67]

No, IMO, there are no videos showing that SA leaned his head out the window. This is the part that the Wiegands in their response says RCCL is lying about.

This is the part that the re-enactment is purporting to show. That at no time was SA's head "outside the window" and at no point while being held was Chloe outside the ship. Out the window means outside the ship.

I mean how can anyone look at this photo and come away thinking it’s not possible for the doll to go outside the window if he extended his arms so they were not bent at a 90 degree angle?

 

[justbreathe]

He did not recognize the danger, because he claims not to have known the window was open.

But what he meant to say was that he didn’t know it was a “window” at all.

 

[Forever Young]

The law says the opposite of this.

The standard is not “a possibility it could happen.” They would have to enclose the entire ship.

The standard is prior notice of danger and not correcting it.

The legal standard of “danger”, i.e. not complying with applicable safety regulations, is what is applied.

How could a ship ever transport passengers if the standard for them being liable for injury was “if it can happen, you can win lawsuit for it.”

OK, so were they complying with applicable safety regulations? But I do disagree, because court opinion shows that a "foreseeable" danger, i. e. a possibility, is a "triable issue of fact for a jury to decide". A verdict can indeed be rendered on the basis of what was a possibility.

This is why the re-enactment photos show other ways that any other child could have climbed upon the railing and went out the open window.

 

[Medstudies]

No, but it proves he knew it was a window and not a “solid wall of glass.”

You bet and ...

 

[FactFinder3000]

IMO, it was easy to discern, after she fell, that the window was open. He claims he did not know it was open before she fell.

Because toddlers don't just pass through glass? Needed that final clue, I guess.

 

[justbreathe]

After she fell, he knew it was not a solid wall of glass.

So he never thought “this is closed.”

He thought “this is a solid wall.”

According to...the lawyer of the parents of the child he killed?

 

[justbreathe]

I mean how can anyone look at this photo and come away thinking it’s not possible for the doll to go outside the window if he extended his arms so they were not bent at a 90 degree angle?

And I know this has been said but - why would he make publicly available a photo that demonstrates the Chloe stand-in being held on the *window frame*???

Remember when we all argued if he held her standing on the wooden rail or in the actual window?

 

[justbreathe]

Because toddlers don't just pass through glass? Needed that final clue, I guess.

IIRC, while he does seem aware toddlers can’t pass through glass, he suspects glass may be able to “just disappear.”

 

[katydid23]

He did not recognize the danger, because he claims not to have known the window was open.

That claim is so hard for people to believe.

 

[Forever Young]

I agree with you on this. However, I think MW's recreation actually winds up showing that SA could easily have held CW outside the plane of the glass in a way that the so far revealed video does not. Could RCCL have been providing MW with enough rope to hang himself?

Still does not prove that SA knew the window was open, even if he would have been able to reach outside the window. That does not show that he could see that the window was open.

 

[katydid23]

IMO, I have always imagined that someone, or even SA to himself, said, "You didn't see there was no glass? Buddy, you better get your eyes examined."

Then came the diagnosis with a doctor explaining that color-blindness does not effect just the perception of color, but also shading and depth perception. He was told that this may be why this happened. IMOO

Oh come on. lol So we are to believe that this guy had color blindness his entire life, to such a debilitating degree that he couldn't tell a 'clear ' open window from a tinted glass panel, and he wouldn't instantly know it was because of his visual disability? He'd need someone to tell him that? After 51 years of living with it?

 

[Yellowbeak]

It’s not level vertically. Look at the red line in the left. It’s straight up. If you were to measure every few inches or so with a horizontal level, the higher the tape measure, the further it pulls away from level to the right. So at floor level let’s say it’s two feet. As you move up it would slowly spread out from two feet, to 2.2 ft, 2.3 2.4. So at head level the tape is several inches wider from the red line to the tape measure than two feet. EDA: that adds a couple of inches to height.
Twisting the tape adds to miscalculations.
EDA: Look closely at the red dot on the bottom of the red line. If you move across horizontally, AND level, notice the tape measure is several inches further back. So the 71 inches is more like 68 inches. That’s why the guy had to be lifted up the 7 inches from the floor in another shot. He’s way shorter than SA. They added at the top. And the bottom. Hahahaha. Ok Winkleman. Gotcha. Optical illusions? Nah.

Really cheap recreation. Like his other attempts. I would think that he could afford animation superimposed on the subject in the pink shirt.

EDA again! Any carpenter will tell you measure twice, cut once. And here’s a great example of measuring gone wrong.

Gosh! I feel like that is so unethical and illegal to purposely mislead the courts in this manner. JMO

 

[katydid23]

IMO, the reason it was not shown is because it does not illustrate a place where there is glass in most places, but none in others. It is all open. The idea of a "hidden opening" does not come into play at the top deck railings.

But there is no 'hidden' opening. You can look at the wall of windows and instantly tell which are open and which are closed. There is no big mystery there at all.

 

[Forever Young]

Yes that is what he claimed - he didn’t know it was open.

Not that he didn’t even know it was window and thought it was a solid glass wall.

I'm not sure that SA is the one who used the description "solid wall of glass". Those are Winkleman's words, and he is the Wiegands attorney, not SA's.