IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[KR72]

I recently heard that Viking does not allow children. I do not know that for a fact, but Viking will be starting locally here with river cruises in a couple of years, and someone commented that they do not allow children.

This is true but it's more because of the nature of the business. They tend to cater to older couples/people and are more of a slow-paced sit back and just enjoy the views type cruise line, not a party it up and have fun! fun! FUN! type cruise. They just aren't focused on children like Carnival or Disney are

Correct, Viking stopped allowing those under 18 altogether a couple of years ago. Viking says its own clientele asked for child free cruises. It makes sense to me and they're catering to their market.

Viking makes it official: Kids no longer welcome on cruises

I've never been on Viking, but know several people that have and Viking definitely caters to a different set. It's more of a luxury brand and its clientele are keenly interested in the art, architecture, and history of the locales they visit. They even have on-board lectures about the places they are visiting, so yeah, the crowd is very different than those looking for all inclusive massive ships with casinos, night clubs and kids activities.

Viking River Cruises – The Thinking Person’s Cruise Line

 

[katydid23]

snip>

You can't be damaged until it happens. But you can allege that the damage was foreseeable and should have been remedied before the damage happened, even if you are the first and only one that it happened to.

Well, that's a problem for Grandpa and his family. No one seems to believe it was foreseeable that an adult would lift a child up and over the guard rail and stand her up in an 11th story window ledge, over a concrete pavement.

His actions were reckless and highly irresponsible. So much so that some people wonder if he purposely killed her.

And I do have a problem with this wording:
"...even if you are the first and only one that it happened to."

That IT HAPPENED TO? What happened to him?

HE is the one that created this tragic situation. Nothing 'happened' to him. He made it happen.

 

[Forever Young]

I believe that there is at least one witness. Remember when it first happened and a short video appeared taken from outside the ship, after the accident? There were two people standing at a window on that deck and one of the men was rapidly moving his arms inside and outside the window, as if demonstrating what he saw. It went along with the initial statement that Sam was playing a game with her. And that repeated motion also sort of goes along with a later story we heard, that Chloe and Sam were moving forward several times- Winkleman said it was so they could get a better view. We will be hearing from that witness later, no doubt.

I think that is LE, talking about what SA said happened.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I hope RCL demands a neuroophthalmic evaluation to document the “color blindness” and the etiology.

You’re our hero, Medstudies. An “eye guy” too! Plz take that as a compliment. WS needs a variety of specialties to discuss/ dissect and solve crimes.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Well, that's a problem for Grandpa and his family. No one seems to believe it was foreseeable that an adult would lift a child up and over the guard rail and stand her up in an 11th story window ledge, over a concrete pavement.

His actions were reckless and highly irresponsible. So much so that some people wonder if he purposely killed her.

And I do have a problem with this wording:
"...even if you are the first and only one that it happened to."

That IT HAPPENED TO? What happened to him?

HE is the one that created this tragic situation. Nothing 'happened' to him. He made it happen.

Can LE prosecutor enhance the negligence to murder as all these videos come out? Maybe there is other evidence, still uncovered that might show a conspiracy to murder somehow. Who else could that involve?

 

[katydid23]

OK, so were they complying with applicable safety regulations? But I do disagree, because court opinion shows that a "foreseeable" danger, i. e. a possibility, is a "triable issue of fact for a jury to decide". A verdict can indeed be rendered on the basis of what was a possibility.
This is why the re-enactment photos show other ways that any other child could have climbed upon the railing and went out the open window.

As to the bolded above, how does that^^^ help this family win a monetary award? What would it matter if another older child decided, at some future date, to climb on the table and up on the railing and then out the window? [which I doubt could ever happen anyway?]

How would that future hypothetical have anything to do with this particular case, which is nothing like thAt? In Chloe's tragic death, her caregiver physically placed her in a deadly situation and she died a brutal death.

I don't think the jury will ignore that part of the equation, and reward them monetarily because someday, some kid may figure out away to jump.

 

[Andreee]

This would make sense except for the “up and over the safety rail” part.

He could have lifted her and sat her on the railing facing him with her legs still within ship. He could have looked at the view with her side saddle on the rail. He could have been clutching her tightly against him. These are all actions of a tired person who just wants to have the kid still for a few without having to hold their full weight.

Lifting her over the rail - there is literally no reason to do that except to “fly” and make the baby either laugh or be scared (depending on the baby), which could be a stupid, stupid mistake having nothing to do with banging on glass or a missing window. OR to purposefully intend to drop her.

I think the “I thought the window was closed” part came when he realized in the elevator that they might be taking him straight to jail.

And now that is what he is sticking with.

Because he thinks to have to tell the parents and his wife at this point that he is just a dummy who did a dumb thing and killed a baby would make everything worse.

So now, they will sue...and lose. SA will probably go to jail if he doesn’t take deal.

And the family will be able to nurse their denial by making SA a big giant martyr victim of Big Corporation.

But SA will always know the truth.

It will be interesting to see what everyone’s stance is a few years, or decades from now.

I have a feeling AW’s denial will fade first.

KW may never be able to accept what really happened.

This would make sense except for the “up and over the safety rail” part.

He could have lifted her and sat her on the railing facing him with her legs still within ship. He could have looked at the view with her side saddle on the rail. He could have been clutching her tightly against him. These are all actions of a tired person who just wants to have the kid still for a few without having to hold their full weight.

Lifting her over the rail - there is literally no reason to do that except to “fly” and make the baby either laugh or be scared (depending on the baby), which could be a stupid, stupid mistake having nothing to do with banging on glass or a missing window. OR to purposefully intend to drop her.

I think the “I thought the window was closed” part came when he realized in the elevator that they might be taking him straight to jail.

And now that is what he is sticking with.

Because he thinks to have to tell the parents and his wife at this point that he is just a dummy who did a dumb thing and killed a baby would make everything worse.

So now, they will sue...and lose. SA will probably go to jail if he doesn’t take deal.

And the family will be able to nurse their denial by making SA a big giant martyr victim of Big Corporation.

But SA will always know the truth.

It will be interesting to see what everyone’s stance is a few years, or decades from now.

I have a feeling AW’s denial will fade first.

KW may never be able to accept what really happened.

 

[Andreee]

From what I've read in media, the step grandfather's exclamation about there being glass on the window (closed) came when he fell to his knees right after the tragedy, not in the elevator. But I'm sure the closest witnesses will be able to give a genuine account of what was said!

 

[Forever Young]

This was discussed earlier in this thread. He is citing from standards for hotels and other land buildings that have no applicability to ships.

Somebody thought that it was not applicable to cruise ships. Winkleman, as a maritime lawyer, knows what is and what is not applicable to cruise ships, and that even if it was not at the time applicable to cruise ships, does not mean that a judge cannot find it relevant and decide to make it applicable.

 

[Lawsmygame2]

Perhaps not. BUT, when one looks at ALL the behaviors leading up to Chloe being dropped, followed by all the absurd assertions and contradictions after the fact, it all screams NEGLIGENCE!!
Furthermore, it can be argued that SA took aim for that particular window because he KNEW it was open. The video footage from the rear angle shows SA getting up from his crouch and walks around to that window. He does not go in a straight line to the windows in front of him, or to the right. He turns to the left... to that particular window.
Then he bends over from the midsection and looks down... not once, but twice. What is looking down at.... the floor, his toes???

Exactly. Maybe it could be argued that the first time he was bent over the railing he was looking at Chloe who was beneath him on the floor but what was he looking down at the second time? He couldn’t be looking at Chloe. He had already picked her up. Clearly, his head was through the window looking down at the pier.

 

[justice4allnow]

Color blindness can be acquired and worsen over time.

Acquired Colour Vision Defects - Colour Blind Awareness

Interesting, that there may be a link between color blindness and conditions such as Alzheimers or alcoholism.

I think that is LE, talking about what SA said happened.

You think that both of those people are LE? How did you find that out?

 

[Forever Young]

Even if that was the truth, and he planned to prop her up in the window ledge of a closed window, that would have been dangerous and negligent on his part. She would have been pushed up right against the glass. What was he thinking?

It would have been an unsteady situation and a good chance she would have fallen. Igt could have been a nasty fall with a severe head injury.

So claiming he thought it was a closed window doesn't really prevent him from being reckless and negligent for lifting a baby up and over the guard rail, to stand her up in a tiny window ledge, where her feet would have only inches of support before she was up against the glass.

Yup, he can still be found to be negligent. That is for the judge and jury to decide. But there are two cases, one to decide SA's negligence, and one to decide RCCL's negligance. What he did is one part, what the conditions of the ship was is another.

 

[they'll get you]

If the family does get $$BIG I believe there will be other copycatS that will attempt the same thing.
Imagine a step dad who doesn’t want a child burdening his relationship? Easy bucks.
People intentionally book a cruise to suicide.....

The precedence will be set.

 

[Forever Young]

Interesting, that there may be a link between color blindness and conditions such as Alzheimers or alcoholism.

You think that both of those people are LE? How did you find that out?

The photo was taken from outside the ship at night, and they appear to be two uniformed officers, IRC. IMO

 

[Medstudies]

Color blindness can be acquired and worsen over time.

Acquired Colour Vision Defects - Colour Blind Awareness

Yea I know. I do it for a living. With a speciality in vitreoretina research

 

[they'll get you]

Correct, Viking stopped allowing those under 18 altogether a couple of years ago. Viking says its own clientele asked for child free cruises. It makes sense to me and they're catering to their market.

Viking makes it official: Kids no longer welcome on cruises

I've never been on Viking, but know several people that have and Viking definitely caters to a different set. It's more of a luxury brand and its clientele are keenly interested in the art, architecture, and history of the locales they visit. They even have on-board lectures about the places they are visiting, so yeah, the crowd is very different than those looking for all inclusive massive ships with casinos, night clubs and kids activities.

Viking River Cruises – The Thinking Person’s Cruise Line

Richard Branson’s new cruises don’t allow children.

 

[MsMarple]

Even though it won't really impact the case I find the incongruities frustrating! Another example, my bolding...

From the Complaint:
17. There was not a single, adequate indication that this wall of glass panes was not actually a wall of fixed glass panes, but instead a wall of glass with glass panes that could actually slide and remain open, as windows. For instance, none of the glass panes, which were mere feet from the kids’ H2O Zone, contained a warning, design decal on the glass, or anything to warn passengers, such as Mr. Anello, of the hidden danger that some of the glass pane windows in the middle row may be slid open
Complaint - Wiegand vs Royal Caribbean Cruises LTD - LMAW, PA
From the Preliminary Response to Dismiss:
Distance from H2O Zone to window = 43.33 feet.
Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 3.pdf

 

[they'll get you]

I want to know what the bridge camera captured along the side of the ship, the angle if it saw SA’s head outside and where he was holding Chloe for those seconds.
Thats the clincher for everything.
imo.

 

[Forever Young]

From what I've read in media, the step grandfather's exclamation about there being glass on the window (closed) came when he fell to his knees right after the tragedy, not in the elevator. But I'm sure the closest witnesses will be able to give a genuine account of what was said!

That is from the attending doctor's statement, though it does not rule out that he was saying that before he told the doctor that in the elevator. It does sound like that he was under the care and supervision of the doctor within minutes.

 

[Forever Young]

If the family does get $$BIG I believe there will be other copycatS that will attempt the same thing.
Imagine a step dad who doesn’t want a child burdening his relationship? Easy bucks.
People intentionally book a cruise to suicide.....

Not if the windows in question are remedied to be prevented from opening more than 4 inches.