IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[justice4allnow]

Was it LE or a witness?

I don't know-I initially thought that one was a witness, but 2 WebSleuthers say that these are uniformed LE. I am new to all of this, so open to the opinions of those who are more experienced or more observant .

 

[wackyw]

I just don’t see him go anywhere but to the one window she ultimately falls from.

I think he had no ill intentions toward CW.

I think he got to the window and she was on the floor between his legs and the window. He bent over and looking down between the railing and the window frame watched her. After several seconds he crouches down and with her then lifts her up. He raises her very high over the railing and appears to set her on the wood railing. After several seconds standing facing the window he appears to lift her and shift her from his right to his left and seems to be holding her with only one arm. At some point they seem to lean forward and shortly after that CW falls from his grasp and SA falls backward to the deck.

I do not believe a reasonable person standing less than 24 inches from an open window would not observe that the window was open and that no glass was present unless they were cognitively impaired or negligently not paying attention to what was the environment around them. He clearly violated the prohibition on placing things over the ships railing which leads me to believe he was simply reckless with the safety of his grand daughter. I don’t think he should go to jail but if he does I won’t be bothered. I don’t believe the windows represent a danger to any reasonable person and I don’t think they need to be changed or modified.

Ahh OK. He doesn't move, no. but from his action of picking her up I think she was to his right, but I do see what you are saying. But if she was directly beneath him, and he wanted her to his left, why didn't he move her to his left in the first place, instead of to his right, then moving her to his left? Anyway, the video is so grainy we'll not get much further with that!! Hopefully the proprietary video will be much clearer to those in court.

 

[Forever Young]

Oh boy, idk, but this whole thing, has gone on a bit. Maybe there’s something we’re missing? But, it does seem you are leaning toward protecting SA. Am I wrong?

No, I am just presenting the other side of the case.

IMO, Not sure he can actually be proved to be lying. The simplest explanation might be that he really did think there was glass there, and what does that mean, if he is not lying about that?

They really do seem to be a close-knit and loving family, seemed to love Chloe with all their hearts.

I know everyone, myself included has experienced a lot of anger over the death of that poor little innocent girl and look for an explanation for how this could happen. However it happened, awareness should be raised about it, IMO, through discussion.

 

[Chikkamma]

Without video taken from outside the ship, IMO, I don't think it can be established that SA was "leaning out the window". He was leaning over the railing, and the railing kept him from leaning out the window, which it was designed to do, IMO.

There are lots of kinds of hard evidence of a crime, besides knowing what a person was seeing or thinking. DNA is one that comes to mind, for instance. Physical evidence. Speculation is what creates "reasonable doubt", IMOO.

With all due respect, I don’t understand your blind insistence that SA couldn’t have leaned out the window when he leaned over the railing when there are people in this very forum (shorter than SA), who have been on this very ship, who have stated that they were able to lean out the window when they leaned over the railing.

Its fine to have an opinion, but it seems like yours is set in stone, never to be swayed, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Forever Young]

I don't know-I initially thought that one was a witness, but 2 WebSleuthers say that these are uniformed LE. I am new to all of this, so open to the opinions of those who are more experienced or more observant .

The video from Telemundo, linked by weeping angel, shows a video sequence that appears to show the two men leaving with a group of law enforcement.

 

[they'll get you]

Ahh, but did one half of the pool have a coloured cover over it, and the other half not ?

The other half without the cover appeared to be crystal clear water and I appreciate get your point.
This is the tripe Winkleman & Co. will be arguing. They’ll be out to confuse and convince. It’s a fight to the death now.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I am just going by the evidence presented, and since no murder charge was brought against SA, I have to assume that LE investigated and ruled that out.

Or simply can’t prove it. So they opted with a bird in the hand. So, what would it have taken to show intent on SA’s part to move it up the ranks. We’ve talked about it until our brains are fried. Bc like you say can’t prove what he was thinking, or seeing, so we thought about motive. Like I said, we couldn’t get a grip on murder, but motives were tossed around. And kids get murdered every day. Ok, two of us couldn’t get a grip, me and another poster. What did you contemplate to make you think the worst?

 

[Lilibet]

Just had my hubby watch this video. He told me to be quiet and not say anything, so I didn't. No explanations. Here's his response:

"He threw the baby out the window... that sorry SOB.... "
Then he got up and walked out. Then, back in...
"the question is why". Then he said,
"it had to be a vendetta, vengeance. There's more to it than meets the eye. "
"who's it going to hurt the worst " ?

https://video-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v...=de4c52406978f61b76ba2c67dc952e61&oe=5E8E5E71

Wow! Out of the mouths of hubbies!

 

[wackyw]

The other half without the cover appeared to be crystal clear water and I appreciate get your point.
This is the tripe Winkleman & Co. will be arguing. They’ll be out to confuse and convince. It’s a fight to the death now.

BBM - I'm going to go all footballer (UK) on you and agree "110%"

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Wow! Out of the mouths of hubbies!

Da-m!

sorry sorry. Like the 38 year LE veteran husband said about Fotis Dulos. He did it. Just one look.

 

[Forever Young]

With all due respect, I don’t understand your blind insistence that SA couldn’t have leaned out the window when he leaned over the railing when there are people in this very forum (shorter than SA), who have been on this very ship, who have stated that they were able to lean out the window when they leaned over the railing.

Its fine to have an opinion, but it seems like yours is set in stone, never to be swayed, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

They have shown that they can "reach" their hand or arm out the window. They have not shown that they can reach their entire upper body out the window, which is RCCL says SA did. To do that, their feet would have to leave the floor. I have not seen any evidence to the contrary. IMO

 

[mheido67]

No, I am just presenting the other side of the case.

IMO, Not sure he can actually be proved to be lying. The simplest explanation might be that he really did think there was glass there, and what does that mean, if he is not lying about that?

They really do seem to be a close-knit and loving family, seemed to love Chloe with all their hearts.

I know everyone, myself included has experienced a lot of anger over the death of that poor little innocent girl and look for an explanation for how this could happen. However it happened, awareness should be raised about it, IMO, through discussion.

“The simplest explanation might be that he really did think there was glass there, and what does that mean, if he is not lying about that.”

For me it comes down to the timing. If he’d lifted her from the floor, swung her over the rail and she fell almost instantly I could accept that perhaps he really did not realize there was no glass. But it wasn’t instant. He stood there with her facing the opening for half a minute. Enough time to realize there was no glass.

And his explanation for why he picked her up makes no sense. Zero. How would it be easier for her to bang on the glass which was further away beyond the railing than to do so on the glass that was closer by the floor. This is what really bothers me. So that leads me to believe perhaps he wanted her to look out the open window while he was holding her and she moved and he lost his grip. End of story.

 

[they'll get you]

Just had my hubby watch this video. He told me to be quiet and not say anything, so I didn't. No explanations. Here's his response:

"He threw the baby out the window... that sorry SOB.... "
Then he got up and walked out. Then, back in...
"the question is why". Then he said,
"it had to be a vendetta, vengeance. There's more to it than meets the eye. "
"who's it going to hurt the worst " ?

https://video-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v...=de4c52406978f61b76ba2c67dc952e61&oe=5E8E5E71

My hubby said the same but he said ‘he murdered her’.
We both know those windows well as we’ve been on the Voyager and Explorer several times and we’ve both leaned over and out to take photos.
I was in fear of dropping my phone, glasses or hat. Not in our wildest nightmares would we put a child up there - EVER.

 

[Forever Young]

Or simply can’t prove it. So they opted with a bird in the hand. So, what would it have taken to show intent on SA’s part to move it up the ranks. We’ve talked about it until our brains are fried. Bc like you say can’t prove what he was thinking, or seeing, so we thought about motive. Like I said, we couldn’t get a grip on murder, but motives were tossed around. And kids get murdered every day. Ok, two of us couldn’t get a grip, me and another poster. What did you contemplate to make you think the worst?

I questioned if it was an accident, because it does appear he purposely put her on the railing. That part was no accident.

But he did not ever claim that he didn't do that. He claimed he didn't know that there was no glass there.

 

[In vino veritas]

It is not the circumstances, or how it happens. The common and preventable element in other hypothetical cases would be the open window.

"How would that future hypothetical have anything to do with this particular case, which is nothing like thAt? In Chloe's tragic death, her caregiver physically placed her in a deadly situation and she died a brutal death."

Because there was an open window.

No, I work in IT support. I often have to work out why some outcome is not what was expected/desired. Sometimes it is a fault in the thought actually applied, sometimes it due to an accidental "missing" thought, sometimes it is errrr... other.

 

[wackyw]

They have shown that they can "reach" their hand or arm out the window. They have not shown that they can reach their entire upper body out the window, which is RCCL says SA did. To do that, their feet would have to leave the floor. I have not seen any evidence to the contrary. IMO

These are SA's words in the CBS interview ..

"
so I was trying to stand her on a railing and it happened in seconds
I had her and I was trying to knock on the glass
and at that point I'm gonna have to lean further for her for her to be able to reach it cos I thought it was further out than I expected
and that's the point where she slipped out of me
at no point during that incident did I think she fell out, it was like unbelievable like it disappeared the glass disappeared
"

Not that I really believe much he said in that interview, but ....

"she slipped out of me"
"at no point during that incident did I think she fell out"

Open to interpretation perhaps, but to me these two statements suggest she "dropped", like he stated to LE, vertically, as opposed to lunging forward first.
If she dropped vertically, and outside of the ship which she obviously did, then he was holding her outside of the ship.
These words might come back to haunt him, if he were to testify, which he won't.

 

[mheido67]

My hubby said the same but he said ‘he murdered her’.
We both know those windows well as we’ve been on the Voyager and Explorer several times and we’ve both leaned over and out to take photos.
I was in fear of dropping my phone, glasses or hat. Not in our wildest nightmares would we put a child up there - EVER.

I also recall removing my sunglasses from my head while leaning out and looking down at the water concerned that they might drop out the window. I’m 5’-11”.

 

[In vino veritas]

Please pardon my ignorance of the law and all it’s nuances, because I’m not sure I understand why RCCL, in the motion to dismiss, would not have included additional incriminating evidence proving SA’s culpability?

 

[Forever Young]

And his explanation for why he picked her up makes no sense. Zero. How would it be easier for her to bang on the glass which was further away beyond the railing than to do so on the glass that was closer by the floor. This is what really bothers me. So that leads me to believe perhaps he wanted her to look out the open window while he was holding her and she moved and he lost his grip. End of story.

This one is a puzzler......

Unless, in a misguided fashion, SA thought he was being more careful by having Chloe at eye level, instead of trying to stoop down beneath the railing himself, where she was. Fateful decision. IMO

 

[wackyw]

“The simplest explanation might be that he really did think there was glass there, and what does that mean, if he is not lying about that.”

For me it comes down to the timing. If he’d lifted her from the floor, swung her over the rail and she fell almost instantly I could accept that perhaps he really did not realize there was no glass. But it wasn’t instant. He stood there with her facing the opening for half a minute. Enough time to realize there was no glass.

And his explanation for why he picked her up makes no sense. Zero. How would it be easier for her to bang on the glass which was further away beyond the railing than to do so on the glass that was closer by the floor. This is what really bothers me. So that leads me to believe perhaps he wanted her to look out the open window while he was holding her and she moved and he lost his grip. End of story.

If she is stood on the upper frame window frame/sill, which I think he admits, then she is closer. But it's not really about it being easier for HER, it's more about being easier for him ... stood upright and for HIM to lean against the SAFETY rail.

CAPS for emphasis of words only !

JMOO