IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[MimosaMornings]

From what I understand, the mother needed to go and attend to a matter, so she called on the grandfather to come and watch the toddler and this is the result after only about 15 minutes.

Wondering where everyone else was? I figured they would all be together doing family stuff. Did another family member come and tell the mom there was a sudden matter she needed to take care of?
Perhaps a steward spoke to her?
And only 15 minutes after she left!!
It’s just horrifying.

 

[justice4allnow]

We learned a little about Chloe's life through her obituary, for instance that she liked to watch Frozen, "3 times a day," a movie that runs 102 minutes.( Recommended screen time for a child of 18 mos is not to exceed 30 minutes a day.) I also remember reading online a page set up for remembrances, maybe it ws on the obituary page itself, not sure, that a woman had an entry saying something to the father along the lines of, 'whenever I got a text saying hi neighbor, I knew that I'd be taking Chloe for the day and loved having her over and playing dolls with her' (but I'm paraphrasing.) And the entry was followed by a brief almost terse reply from Kim, saying thank you. When I read about Chloe watching Frozen repeatedly and a neighbor being asked to watch her, apparently repeatedly, I wondered whether the parents were finding it difficult to keep their child amused and occupied. I went back to find that entry from the neighbor about watching her and can't find it now, wondering if anyone else has seen it or maybe it has been deleted, though can't imagine why anyone would delete anything about Chloe. And I'm not sure why, but these apparently minor points made me uneasy.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

Yes, factoring in the unpredictability of human nature can make it difficult to prevent all accidents.
I still wonder why he was watching her at the water area. Wouldn’t he have needed water or swim apparel? Could that be the reason they didn’t stay near the water play area?

The children's pool area is very shallow, just basically a place to splash around in puddles. He could watch her from the sidelines if she was running through streams of water that shoot up from the ground without needing a bathing suit on. but to me from the videos he looks very lethargic or medicated, he leans against the pole by the pool area and then is lagging behind her as she runs to the window. Not top babysitting behavior for a very young child if they are not within arm's reach you are too far away to grab them immediately if they get into trouble. Especially in a new unfamiliar environment like a huge cruise ship. I also think part of the reason he picked her up at the window is because it was too uncomfortable for him to crouch down for a long period of time while she used the lower glass portion and there was nothing for him to sit on. I still maintain he was medicated in some way his behavior was not rational.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

We learned a little about Chloe's life through her obituary, for instance that she liked to watch Frozen, "3 times a day," a movie that runs 102 minutes.( Recommended screen time for a child of 18 mos is not to exceed 30 minutes a day.) I also remember reading online a page set up for remembrances, maybe it ws on the obituary page itself, not sure, that a woman had an entry saying something to the father along the lines of, 'whenever I got a text saying hi neighbor, I knew that I'd be taking Chloe for the day and loved having her over and playing dolls with her' (but I'm paraphrasing.) And the entry was followed by a brief almost terse reply from Kim, saying thank you. When I read about Chloe watching Frozen repeatedly and a neighbor being asked to watch her, apparently repeatedly, I wondered whether the parents were finding it difficult to keep their child amused and occupied. I went back to find that entry from the neighbor about watching her and can't find it now, wondering if anyone else has seen it or maybe it has been deleted, though can't imagine why anyone would delete anything about Chloe. And I'm not sure why, but these apparently minor points made me uneasy.

Wow. That makes me uneasy too. Very much so. That and it seems like so much early stuff about the case and the family has been scrubbed off the Internet...

 

[mheido67]

Wondering where everyone else was? I figured they would all be together doing family stuff. Did another family member come and tell the mom there was a sudden matter she needed to take care of?
Perhaps a steward spoke to her?
And only 15 minutes after she left!!
It’s just horrifying.

I’m sure the whereabouts of the rest of their party will be discussed if the case gets to trial. My understanding is the mother was with CW at the H2O Zone and was called to guest services. I imagine to straighten out something to do with their accommodations or dining or any number of the things that can require sorting when beginning a cruise. Perhaps something not related to the ship? I believe it was stated that the whole group had gone to dine at the buffet before KW went to H2O with CW. Perhaps the rest were still there? In any event SA was tasked with tending to CW and the rest is history.

 

[justice4allnow]

Wow. That makes me uneasy too. Very much so. That and it seems like so much early stuff about the case and the family has been scrubbed off the Internet...

Thanks, Saguaro, and btw, I really like your avatar

 

[mheido67]

We learned a little about Chloe's life through her obituary, for instance that she liked to watch Frozen, "3 times a day," a movie that runs 102 minutes.( Recommended screen time for a child of 18 mos is not to exceed 30 minutes a day.) I also remember reading online a page set up for remembrances, maybe it ws on the obituary page itself, not sure, that a woman had an entry saying something to the father along the lines of, 'whenever I got a text saying hi neighbor, I knew that I'd be taking Chloe for the day and loved having her over and playing dolls with her' (but I'm paraphrasing.) And the entry was followed by a brief almost terse reply from Kim, saying thank you. When I read about Chloe watching Frozen repeatedly and a neighbor being asked to watch her, apparently repeatedly, I wondered whether the parents were finding it difficult to keep their child amused and occupied. I went back to find that entry from the neighbor about watching her and can't find it now, wondering if anyone else has seen it or maybe it has been deleted, though can't imagine why anyone would delete anything about Chloe. And I'm not sure why, but these apparently minor points made me uneasy.

Busy parents relying on grandparents and neighbors to fill in the childcare gaps is not exactly an indictment of their family life in my opinion.

 

[mickey2942]

Family attorney for toddler who died falling from cruise ship says Royal Caribbean has been ‘giving a false narrative since day one’

Winkleman states that RCCL has had a "false narrative" since day 1 of Chloe's death. Hmmm...

 

[justice4allnow]

Busy parents relying on grandparents and neighbors to fill in the childcare gaps is not exactly an indictment of their family life in my opinion.

I agree, mheido 67, that's why I said these were minor points and why I added that I'm not even sure why I felt vaguely uneasy about it...

 

[Kayjaybe]

To me, whether or not SA’s head was able to break the plane of where the window would have been is irrelevant. He was certainly close enough to where the window would be to see that there was no window there.

This isn’t someone that was walking, distracted by their phone or something and walked into a clear plate of glass. He stood there, first by himself and then with Chloe, for over 30 seconds - feeling the wind on his face, hearing the sounds outside, and having nothing obscuring his view (tint, salt on the window, etc.)

If he was TRULY that oblivious to his surroundings or if his “color blindness” affected his vision so much, I would hope he didn’t have a driver’s license (which we know he does) nor would be allowed to be allowed to watch a child (which he did.)

If I were on the jury, I wouldn’t need them to prove he could physically put his head OUT the window. His head was definitely less than 12 inches from the window and unless he was legally blind, he had to have been able to know there was no window there.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Busy parents relying on grandparents and neighbors to fill in the childcare gaps is not exactly an indictment of their family life in my opinion.

True, but it sounds to me (JMOO and all that) like it was a lot to expect of a neighbor, especially given CW's age, and the amount of TV/screen time really was excessive. Just sayin'. As this case goes on, it is very interesting that the snippets of info are filling in a whole picture. A very very interesting picture. The truth, as they say, will out.

 

[mheido67]

True, but it sounds to me (JMOO and all that) like it was a lot to expect of a neighbor, especially given CW's age, and the amount of TV/screen time really was excessive. Just sayin'. As this case goes on, it is very interesting that the snippets of info are filling in a whole picture. A very very interesting picture. The truth, as they say, will out.

A) The mother was with CW initially at the H2O Zone. Certainly not ignoring her child.

B) If the parents didn’t want to have to deal with their kids they could have left them home with the grandparents. But they didn’t.

I don’t think how much time CW spent watching animated movies or with her neighbor has anything to do with the fact that she died in a tragic accident.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

A) The mother was with CW initially at the H2O Zone. Certainly not ignoring her child.

B) If the parents didn’t want to have to deal with their kids they could have left them home with the grandparents. But they didn’t.

I don’t think how much time CW spent watching animated movies or with her neighbor has anything to do with the fact that she died in a tragic accident.

IMOO this was NOT an accident. Also, according to MSM both sets of grandparents were on the cruise with them.

 

[Pak31]

Wondering where everyone else was? I figured they would all be together doing family stuff. Did another family member come and tell the mom there was a sudden matter she needed to take care of?
Perhaps a steward spoke to her?
And only 15 minutes after she left!!
It’s just horrifying.

Interesting. Mom just so happened to have to attend to something and she doesn’t have her stay with dad but grandpa and then almost immediately she’s gone in such a ridiculous situation. Then immediately the family has a lawyer blaming the ship. Coincidence? I don’t believe in coincidences. With everything that happened after the fact, none of these family members acted in a way most of us would.

 

[Chikkamma]

Somebody thought that it was not applicable to cruise ships. Winkleman, as a maritime lawyer, knows what is and what is not applicable to cruise ships, and that even if it was not at the time applicable to cruise ships, does not mean that a judge cannot find it relevant and decide to make it applicable.

Actually, thats exactly what it means. If a certain requirement was not at the time applicable to cruise ships, a judge cannot go back in time and retroactively apply that requirement and say the cruise line should have followed it. Ask a lawyer.

 

[Area52]

They have shown that they can "reach" their hand or arm out the window. They have not shown that they can reach their entire upper body out the window, which is RCCL says SA did. To do that, their feet would have to leave the floor. I have not seen any evidence to the contrary. IMO

Again, respectfully, this would not have happened if SA was not reckless. I was on the Freedom of the Sea in October 2019. Before the cruise began there was paperwork regarding safety including sitting or standing on rails. Every adult who sails must read, sign and submit this paperwork or you cannot sail.
I am a little over 5 '5", and was able to lean against the railing and get my head out far enough to look down. SA would have no problem doing this. He would also feel the air coming thru the window with his eyes closed. No way does RCCL bear any responsibility. He is a moron!

 

[Pak31]

Well, if we look at the legal definition of a 'reasonable person', Grandpa fails the test.

"Reasonable Person. A phrase frequently used in tort and Criminal Law to denote a hypothetical person in society who exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct and who serves as a comparative standard for determining liability."

So, Is SA someone who ' exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct ?'

Does SA exercise 'average care' with his grand baby? I say NO. I think any reasonable jury will say no.

Does he have average skill level in his endeavour? Again, I'd say NO. He failed miserably at the task of childcare. Very poor skills.

How about his judgment? Ummmmm....very poor judgment. Very very poor judgment.

And his conduct?


I'd say that Grandpa failed the 'reasonable person' standard, no doubt at all.

Agreed. The moment he flung, yes flung her, over that railing all bets were off. No reasonable person would do that. Not only did he fling her over the railing into the ledge, as so as she went into the window frame he pulls his right arm in so obviously he lifts her over the railing and then has her by one arm. He admitted to that. That’s beyond insane IMO. Did she hit the awning that was on the other side of the pier? If that is in fact true, which might not be, She didn’t just drop straight down. She went way out and then down. Just awful.

 

[Pak31]

Busy parents relying on grandparents and neighbors to fill in the childcare gaps is not exactly an indictment of their family life in my opinion.

True but it certainly helps give some insight. Wasn’t KW currently a stay at home mom at the time? I thought I read that. She used to work as an attorney or lawyer? Yes a lot of parents have family and friends pitching in. It doesn’t mean anything but in this case it could help fill in a puzzle piece or two. None of us know for sure that what was written in that obit is true. Nor do we know what went on behind closed doors. People say SA had a great relationship with CW and KW. How do they really know? They don’t know. JMO.

 

[Yellowbeak]

View attachment 227874

@ 0:52 there is a woman standing relaxed at the window.
She is slumped and leaning on the railing.
If she straightened up and stretched herself you can see she’d be able to look out, armpits and head and then be able to stretch her arms a further 2’ out.

Our favourite video yet again.

Yes! Also, if you look at the bottom of the glass, you can see how it goes to the floor. She could of walked right up and looked out to see everything. No need to lift her. Also, look at the guys arm at the end of the video easily breaching the plane of where the glass would of been. SA could of easily lifted her out IMO

 

[justice4allnow]

BBM I could not agree more. We WILL get to the bottom of this mess, trust.

The other thing that gave me a little frisson of disquiet was the father making a formal statement, "We will never forget her." And I thought, my god, of course you will never forget her, she's your child. No one could forget their own child, it goes without saying. I would expect that statement from a friend of the family, for instance or a neighbor.