IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #7

[justice4allnow]

KW and AW. Separated on Ship?
@BeachSky
I wonder if ship doctor separated them at request of PR LE. Were detectives there early enough, at time of time of treatment in sick bay/hospital (terminology?) to interview AW & KSW? And/or others?
Did ship doctor's declaration/affidavit reference other fam members being there in sick bay?

From an article about the doctor:
The grandfather was being escorted (assisted on both sides, from other people) crying and sobbing," Van Drunick's statement explained. "The grandfather collapsed on his hands and knees in the corner of the elevator. He was distraught sobbing, crying, saying: 'I dropped my baby, I dropped my baby."When Van Drunick bent down to ask him what happened, Anello repeated the same claim he has maintained in the months that followed: "I thought the window was closed."
"The parents were emotionally traumatized, asking to see their child," he relayed to police. "The parents were kept separated from the ER/Grandfather."
During that time, the doctor said that Chloe's mother, Kimberly, was given a sedative to calm her, though Anello refused one for himself."He was sitting in one of the ward rooms on the chairs, having calmed down but bursting into tears every time anyone spoke to him," the doctor recalled.

 

[al66pine]

Detectives probably wanted to know whose idea it was to leave Chloe under SA's supervision. Maybe AW would not have made the same decision.

@Pigey Yes, makes sense that would be one of the early questions. Certainly LE would want them all separated.

 

[Lawsmygame2]

KW and AW. Separated on Ship?
@BeachSky
I wonder if ship doctor separated them at request of PR LE. Were detectives there early enough, at time of time of treatment in sick bay/hospital (terminology?) to interview AW & KSW? And/or others?
Did ship doctor's declaration/affidavit reference other fam members being there in sick bay?

I wouldn’t think that PR LE had had time to arrive yet. Based on the doc’s report, within a few minutes of arriving on the scene were Chloe was, the reporting doc said he left to go to deck 11. When the elevator doors opened SA was being helped into the elevator with the aid of two others on both sides of him. Doc had a nurse and some security with him. They then went to level one and shortly thereafter the parents arrived.

I would guess that security requested they keep them separated. I would also like to know if PR LE interviewed AW/KSW or others while in sick bay.

Yes, doc report referenced other family members. Report attached.

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 4.pdf

 

[al66pine]

Wrong Window

Now Mr Winkleman is speaking out against the claims after conducting an inspection of the ship with a maritime safety expert... No Cookies | The Mercury

@they'll get you Great link. No Cookies | The Mercury. Did anyone notice the nighttime pic w yellow tape & LEOs at window wall area? Caption says Winkleman marked the window where SA stood w. red square. But that window is above the 'prison bar window' which is ~ two window columns to the right of the fatal open window.

 

[al66pine]

Accessing IN Court Records
In previous thread, @Chikkamma posted:
"So many comments on the recent news articles reference SA’s “numerous DUIs”. Can anyone here corroborate this? I know about the multiple seatbelt violations, but nothing about a DUI."
@Chikkamma
Here: Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase
In "Person" blanks, type his name ....Anello... Salvatore.....
(Do not select or complete anything else)
Click "Search."
12 results.
No DUI/DWI's ^ there. As has been discussed, he may (or may not) have DWI tickets in other states.
Records also show residence addresses for him in MI and IL. I have not checked there. Anybody?

 

[al66pine]

Brother as a Possible Witness?
In previous thread, @Wehwalt posted:
"...I doubt if the brother would be called by RCC just for the purpose of discussing whether Chloe banged on the glass at his hockey games. There's probably a little relevancy to the issue but not too much, and you'd be taking both a risk both with the jury and the public..."

@Wehwalt sbm
Any thoughts about whether Cbloe's brother would be deposed or called to testify in either civil or crim case? If so, by which party? Hoping to learn or establish what?

 

[Stinalyn]

Possible DUI/DWI Ticket?

Quoting from previous thread:
@FactFinder3000 :"But I did my own search. No sign of any DUI. So claims of DUIs are unsubstantiated rumors and probably false."

Input SA's name at this site: Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase
One* from 20 yrs ago my attn. Criminal misdemeanor. No charge applicable. Not sure how to interp. Could it be a court entry from a DUI/DWI ticket issued? IDK. Was it a Nolle Prosequi (prosecutor dropped)? Seems like that info would also be input. Or? Anyone? Thx in adv.
------------------------------------------------
* "State of Indiana vs. SALVATORE ANELLO
Case Number 64D04-9911-CM-001874
Court Porter Superior Court 4
Type CM - Criminal Misdemeanor

Filed 11/24/1999

Status 11/24/1999 , Pending (active)
01 11/24/1999 No Charge Applicable


Citation#
Statute
NCA
Degree
NC "
^ bbm
Other results showed a civil matter, speeding tickets, and failure to use seatbelt.

So I had a couple of thoughts/questions......
Has anyone searched any states other than Indiana, with regard to possible DUI tickets? There are SO MANY comments on MSM referring to his "multiple DUI's" that I just have a feeling there's got to be something in his past. But this is purely speculation and a gut feeling on my part. There is absolutely no evidence at this time that SA has ever been cited for DUI/DWI in the state of Indiana. I did a search as well.

al66pine: Last week I also had searched the Indiana Supreme Court public access site that you linked above ^^^^. I seriously had the exact same thought that you had regarding the charge from 1999 that is still pending (?) but said "No Charge Applicable". That struck me as very strange and I almost posted it on here but then I thought I was just really reaching in my eagerness to find something to make this whole case understandable ( i.e. evidence of poss alleged drinking prob ) I thought I was looking too hard -- as I've been known to obsess over these cases, and this one in particular. I wanted to take a few days and see if it still seemed "hinky"to me. And then, lo and behold, I see your post and am relieved and reassured that you are asking the same questions that I did. I wish I had answers instead of just more questions!

Back to my original question though. Has anyone searched for DUI/DWI in any other states than Indiana? I haven't myself, but it might not be a bad idea.
After all, he does now officially live in Michigan. And although he seems to have been in Indiana for a number of years, we don't know for sure that he hasn't lived in other states. Maybe he had a DUI/DWI in another state and that's where all these comments are coming from. (?) Again, there is no evidence that this is the case, I am purely speculating but I am curious. I don't know that I will take the time to do a search as I think you have to search by state and I wouldn't even know where to start besides Michigan obviously.

Anyway, just my thoughts/speculations/questions...this case is really getting to me, keeping me up at night. I really want justice for Chloe and I pray that the truth comes out. All MOO JMO etc etc

By the way, I really appreciate everyone's posts and the way so many people have gone above and beyond to get us documents ( Kindred )or lend their expertise as we try to slug through this hell-ish case. Thank you all for your insight and your contributions.

 

[Stinalyn]

Oh my gosh, completely forgot that I had done a search on one of the websites (TruthFinder?) a couple months ago and it showed many different addresses( from a few other states as well as Indiana) for SA. I guess that would give me a good place to start.

Also, al66pine, I see that you had already brought up the issue of searching in other states...don't know how I missed that too. I must need some sleep!

 

[they'll get you]

Wrong Window
@they'll get you Great link. No Cookies | The Mercury. Did anyone notice the nighttime pic w yellow tape & LEOs at window wall area? Caption says Winkleman marked the window where SA stood w. red square. But that window is above the 'prison bar window' which is ~ two window columns to the right of the fatal open window.

I’m seeing the little barred window right under it or am I not understanding.

Right around mum’s head.

 

[justice4allnow]

Curious as to Sam's employment history, as an indicator of stability, as he's been in his current position one year. Anyone?

 

[Wehwalt]

Accessing IN Court Records
In previous thread, @Chikkamma posted:
"So many comments on the recent news articles reference SA’s “numerous DUIs”. Can anyone here corroborate this? I know about the multiple seatbelt violations, but nothing about a DUI."
@Chikkamma
Here: Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase
In "Person" blanks, type his name ....Anello... Salvatore.....
(Do not select or complete anything else)
Click "Search."
12 results.
No DUI/DWI's ^ there. As has been discussed, he may (or may not) have DWI tickets in other states.
Records also show residence addresses for him in MI and IL. I have not checked there. Anybody?

It does not look to me like all Indiana courts participated in the database accessed on that site.

Brother as a Possible Witness?

@Wehwalt sbm
Any thoughts about whether Cbloe's brother would be deposed or called to testify in either civil or crim case? If so, by which party? Hoping to learn or establish what?

Hard to say. Obviously he could testify as to the effects on the family in the civil case to try to establish damages. If we ever get to a trial.

 

[al66pine]

DWI/DUIs? More Questions.

... There are SO MANY comments on MSM referring to his "multiple DUI's" that I just have a feeling there's got to be something in his past. But this is purely speculation and a gut feeling on my part. ...

al66pine: Last week I also had searched the Indiana Supreme Court public access site that you linked above ^^^^. I seriously had the exact same thought that you had regarding the charge from 1999 that is still pending (?) but said "No Charge Applicable". That struck me as very strange...and I wouldn't even know where to start besides Michigan..

@Stinalyn sbm
1. Last question first. As SA has also had addresses in MI & IL, seems like they are the most logical states to start with. As for his possible past travels & poss DUIs in other states -vacay, etc - well, likely to be less fruitful. AFAIK, traffic offenses searching is still done st by st.
2.That ^ wonky looking IN ct entry? Per courts.IN.gov: Public Records ----
"If the document you're looking for isn't available online, you'll need to contact the clerk's office in the county where the case is being heard. The clerk's office can advise you on how to get a copy of the document." Maybe can untangle the meaning of the "still pending" computer entry. A mistake?
3. Lastly I thought about instances of a patrol LEO issuing driver a DWI ticket which ends up being pled down to, say, a speeding offense or a lower point citation, maybe even a seat belt violation?!?!?! From driver's standpoint, happy to plead to seat belt violation, & pay a fine w no points against operator's license, which might otherwise crank up auto insurance premiums. Perhaps someone else here can enlighten about whether any of the IN ct entries show any indication of down- pleading like that, but wonder if that could be detected without access to hard copy tickets and/or other LE files. My last encounter w down-pleading like that (10 mph over 50 mph limit, down to a EVN, excessive vehicle noise, i.e. loud/no muffler = a fine, but no points on license, so no ins premium increase) was approx 100 years ago when municipal/traffic courts were still dipping quill pens into ink wells.

Well, I may have muddied the waters w more questions than answers. You've raised good questions & I hope Websleuthers' collective wisdom & tenacity can ferret out answers. Getting late for me.

 

[katydid23]

I think we all share common values of compassion and protective instincts...whether for animals or humans.

After reading cases here for so long, my love for cats and dogs has increased and my love and respect for humans has vastly decreased.....

 

[al66pine]

Stinalyn
ETA: to the comment I posted ~ 10 min ago. I just read post by @Wehwalt noting ---appears not all IN cts provide info to that database we've discussed.

"Case Search (beta) Search for non-confidential cases in Indiana courts that use the Odyssey case management system. This site replaces the original version previously available at mycase.in.gov.
Tell us what you think of the new site."
^ Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase"

 

[Wehwalt]

What I personally see in the motion to dismiss is RCCI saying, "given our photographs/video, the plaintiffs can't win, as a matter of maritime law, and it doesn't matter what their evidence is". In response, and especially through the pictures, Winkleman is saying IMO, "Our photographs show something different. Determining which of us is right can only be done by a jury."

What normally happens next is RCCI filing a reply brief, then the judge would rule but this is complicated by Winkleman saying their response is only preliminary. So I'm not really sure who will file what next, whether RCCI will reply to this or wait to see if Winkleman files something more.

 

[wackyw]

Wrong Window
@they'll get you Great link. No Cookies | The Mercury. Did anyone notice the nighttime pic w yellow tape & LEOs at window wall area? Caption says Winkleman marked the window where SA stood w. red square. But that window is above the 'prison bar window' which is ~ two window columns to the right of the fatal open window.

Yes, I did. I think the LE were using the next opening window along as a prop in order to communicate/demonstrate to colleagues etc, maybe even witnesses re-enacted what they saw at it. They would not use the actual window in order to preserve any possible evidence there. I think AW took the photo didn't he? He might not have known which window she was dropped from. There is also a picture around from outside the ship showing us an open window, whether is the correct one I couldn't work out. Anyway, I couldn't think of any advantage to MW by trying to misdirect on this, so I stopped questioning it further. I was surprised how many photos/measurements there were of the maintenance hatch in his photos supplied to the court. Why ? But then they were also measuring chairs, stools etc ... I don't think there's much to be gained by reading too much onto it.

 

[wackyw]

In reply to a post on the previous thread about the distances quoted from the glass to the rail ...

19" may come from the pictures provided by MW. See p47 of this ..

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 4.pdf

BUT this is not the distance to the glass, that is to the outer flange that ensures the window frame cannot fall out.
So that is a measurement beyond the glass, it is also not horizontal.

The top picure on p58 shows a measurement of 12.5" or so to the rail, which is 4" wide, so then you get to 16.5".

What it also shows is the depth of the window sill to be approx 2.75". A quick google suggests a foot length of about 5" for an 18 month old.
It would be a bit awkward trying to balance her on this with her heels off the sill.
Where could one move her to in order to avoid that pesky glass being in the way I wonder?
If only there was an open window where there would be no glass and the sill would extend further by 2" or so, it would be so much easier.
But alas no, I can't see the glass in this frame to the left, but it must be there. But I'll move her there anyway.

I also notice the picture on p47 doesn't show the groove in which the window slides, it looks like you get to the edge of the white bit and meet the upstand.
To me it's not easy to see the extra 2" or so, in fact I can't see that. Is that my eyes or monitor setup ?
It's much clearer on the deck 11 tour video about 1m 20s in.

Which I believe was on the other side of the deck, hence the window handles being on the opposite side.

Quoting my own post I know, but I see I put in the wrong link. Correct one is below if anyone wants to see the photos, but I hope the words described it well enough.
Still, it's incorrect to say it's 19" to the glass if that's what was claimed. So I don't mind posting it again

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 3.pdf

 

[mheido67]

I’m seeing the little barred window right under it or am I not understanding.

Right around mum’s head.
View attachment 228166

Yes, that’s the wrong window. MW has said in the past that the fall window was the only open window. That is not true. The video from behind clearly shows that the next operable window to the right was also fully open. It looks like he mistakenly identified that window with his red box. CW fell through the next window to the left. Multiple open windows complicates the “one opening in a solid wall of glass” defense.

 

[mheido67]

I wouldn’t think that PR LE had had time to arrive yet. Based on the doc’s report, within a few minutes of arriving on the scene were Chloe was, the reporting doc said he left to go to deck 11. When the elevator doors opened SA was being helped into the elevator with the aid of two others on both sides of him. Doc had a nurse and some security with him. They then went to level one and shortly thereafter the parents arrived.

I would guess that security requested they keep them separated. I would also like to know if PR LE interviewed AW/KSW or others while in sick bay.

Yes, doc report referenced other family members. Report attached.

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 4.pdf

I think anyone trained in dealing with traumatic situations, particularly involving the death of a child, would know to keep people separate from the person directly involved in the incident. You never know how people are going to respond. They had no idea what the Wiegand family dynamic was. The last thing they needed was an altercation where someone else gets hurt.

 

[WiseGuy]

re court reenactment

If SA is going to claim he lost his balance and the measurements are going to be a key factor, I don't see how the court can avoid going on the ship.

I don't think you can bring the windows and the railing into court because you won't get the same feeling that people are referring to when you are close to the window. And certainly not know if the ship is moving enough to lose your balance. Eye witnesses can only help so much.

I think it they go to the ship, docked, they can see it and feel it and SA can stand there and reenact the events, just like they do in other cases where they go to the murder scene.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the criminal trial, they can't compel SA to cooperate and submit to measurements and re-enactment if he doesn't want to (like pleading the 5th)? In the civil trial, SA isn't a participant, it's KW & AW vs RCCL. But another member mentioned that under some rule (Rule 11?), RCCL could compel SA to join the lawsuit somehow. Not sure if the 5th amendment applies to the lawsuit, so it it possible to compel SA to submit to measurements and re-enactments in the civil trial?

Wouldn't you think that in Winleman's re-enactment, he would have had access to SA, and SA would be cooperative, and so they would want to use the actual SA, in order to give their re-enactment some legitimacy?