IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #7

[oviedo]

Yes, he was offered a deal to plead guilty and not receive any prison time.
He said he was probably not going to accept it because he wanted to go to trial and clear his name.
So now it appears the deal is off the table.

Imo

I remember reading that the prosecutor did not confirm this “deal” it was reported by his lawyer
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...rom-cruise-ship-offered-plea-deal-lawyer/amp/

I’m still hunting down the confirmation from the prosecutor that confirms a plea was offered - I’m sure it’s somewhere since we have discussed this for awhile now
JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

Court filings by Royal Caribbean Line point to grandpa's negligence in Chloe Wiegand's death

Opinion

The reason grandpa picked this window is because it is open, you can tell that because he spends 30 seconds leaning over the railing and looking out the window. There would be a breeze etc...Count to 30, plenty of time.

After being fully aware of it being open he doesn't set Chole on the railing to look, rather he lifts her up higher than the railing to his head level then leans forward farther extending his arms so she is right by the open window. This puts him off balance.

Imagine leaning against something and holding a barbell in each hand touching them against each other. Now while leaning forward you lift them up to your head level. Now extend your arms out and you are going to be off balance and not have a good grip.

Now imagine your standing at a window and you are holding 2 barbells right snug up against your body. You have a good grip and no balancing issues. This is how good parents who are not reckless hold onto their children.

His leaning forward in that unsafe reckless position and holing her out is what caused him to lose his grip and drop her.

What will sink him, and I agree with the cruiseline, is that he spent plenty of time leaning towards the window enjoying the fact it was open.

He holds her forward towards the window opening because he clearly thought it would be "fun" for her to get a look out of an open window.

I could buy grandpa's story if it had happened in a few seconds. Like he had not been looking out that window then he picks her up and in one second puts her up to the "glass".

But it did not happen like that.

Out of all the dozens and dozens of windows he picked that one becasuse it was open.

He didn't just happen to coincidently pick the one opened window in that huge area.

 

[WiseGuy]

I wonder about that. If SA testifies he is open to cross-examination. Given the sketchiness of his story, and his apparent lack of intelligence, that seems like a risk that MW might not want to take. Unless MW is really confident in his ability to feed SA clever answers that will sway a jury.

We believe the criminal trial will have a jury, would a civil lawsuit as well, or is that simply decided by a judge?

 

[mheido67]

Squatting/kneeling straight up and down isn't that bad, it's the scooting around that is more uncomfortable. I take on board your further point though re touching the glass, or "not being able to touch the glass"

Watching the video again raises another question for me. In his interview with DB on CBS SA said he was holding CW to his chest while they leaned forward to try and touch the glass. He motioned with his left arm against his chest and reached out with his right. The attached photo is a still from the back view cctv footage just seconds before CW falls out of view. You can clearly see the top portion of her body and head away from SA’s body. If he had her against his body would she be visible like that? Or does He have her like in the MW recreation photo?

 

[WiseGuy]

DBM

 

[justbreathe]

I wonder about that. If SA testifies he is open to cross-examination. Given the sketchiness of his story, and his apparent lack of intelligence, that seems like a risk that MW might not want to take. Unless MW is really confident in his ability to feed SA clever answers that will sway a jury.

He can’t refuse to testify in the civil trial. All he can do is plead the 5th. He will be subpoenaed.

Once his criminal case is over, the 5th is irrelevant.

The civil trial will wait. They own no one a speedy civil trial.

 

[Pammi]

Sitting on the 11th deck of vision of the seas which is the same class ship as the freedom. In Barbados...

A woman just leaned out the window no problem- head sticking out looking down, and shouted to her husband on the dock below. Her 6-7 year old daughter got upset and said loudly- mommy don’t do that!!! She wouldn’t get near the window. Even a 6 year old gets that you could fall, S.A. was being an idiot in my mind

I’m not as adventurous, but my arm goes out the window past the frame not even stretching, and I’m 5’4.

Once I saw it live it finalized for me there’s no way he didn’t know it was open!

This case is filled with lies they think we’ll believe, I’m in agreement with an earlier post that the jurors need to get on a deck to actually see what he saw and felt (wind) when he dropped her.

Plus I see MOB cameras on deck 5 all the way down the muster stations...I can’t imagine they’d turn them off while in port...

hopeful that MW will not win here (since he’s been barking like a Yorkshire terrier from the beginning with no valid evidence) ...and the case all falls apart in court!

 

[mheido67]

Sitting on the 11th deck of vision of the seas which is the same class ship as the freedom. In Barbados...

A woman just leaned out the window no problem- head sticking out looking down, and shouted to her husband on the dock below. Her 6-7 year old daughter got upset and said loudly- mommy don’t do that!!! She wouldn’t get near the window. Even a 6 year old gets that you could fall, S.A. was being an idiot in my mind

I’m not as adventurous, but my arm goes out the window past the frame not even stretching, and I’m 5’4.

Once I saw it live it finalized for me there’s no way he didn’t know it was open!

This case is filled with lies they think we’ll believe, I’m in agreement with an earlier post that the jurors need to get on a deck to actually see what he saw and felt (wind) when he dropped her.

Plus I see MOB cameras on deck 5 all the way down the muster stations...I can’t imagine they’d turn them off while in port...

hopeful that MW will not win here (since he’s been barking like a Yorkshire terrier from the beginning with no valid evidence) ...and the case all falls apart in court!

Vision of the Seas is a Voyager Class ship. The class before the Freedom Class. Similar but not the same exact design.

 

[Cool Cats]

Court filings by Royal Caribbean Line point to grandpa's negligence in Chloe Wiegand's death

My Opinion after studying video footage and stills:

The reason grandpa picked this window is because it was open, you can tell that because he spends a good 30 seconds leaning over the railing and looking out the window. There would be a breeze etc...

After being fully aware of it being open he doesn't set Chole on the railing to look, rather he lifts her up higher than the railing to his head level then leans forward extending his arms forward so she is right by the open window. This puts him off balance.

Imagine leaning against something and holding 2 10# barbells in each hand touching them together. Now lean forward and lift them up to your head level. Now extend your arms out and you are going to be off balance and not have a good grip.

Now imagine your standing at a window and you are holding 2 barbells right snug up against your body, now you have a good grip and no balancing issues. This is the way parents who are not reckless hold their small children.

His leaning forward in that unsafe reckless position while lifting her up to his head level, then extending his arms out and pushing her forward to see out the open window is what caused him to lose his grip and drop her.

What will sink him, and I agree with the cruiseline, is that he spent enough time leaning towards the open window to know it was open and he was enjoying the fact it was open, that's why he was looking out it.

He holds her forward towards the window because clearly he thought it would be "fun" for her to get a look out of an open window.

I could buy grandpa's story if it had happened in a few seconds. Like he had not been looking out that window then he picks her up and in one second puts her up to the glass.

This is what I previously thought had happened - nothing else makes sense.

But it did not happen like that. Not at all.

Out of all the dozens and dozens of windows he picked that one because it was open.

He didn't just happen to coincidently pick the only open window in that huge area.

 

[oviedo]

We believe the criminal trial will have a jury, would a civil lawsuit as well, or is that simply decided by a judge?

when we file a civil suit we indicate whether a jury trial is wanted - my guess is MW is going for that one juror
JMO

 

[WiseGuy]

when we file a civil suit we indicate whether a jury trial is wanted - my guess is MW is going for that one juror
JMO

Thank you, Oviedo.

In the civil case the defendant is RCCL. So the jury will decree either that RCCL is guilt or not guilty of causing a wrongful death. Normally we expect that a "guilty" verdict is unanimous - correct? So wouldn't MW need 12 people to agree with his side of the story?

 

[mheido67]

Thank you, Oviedo.

In the civil case the defendant is RCCL. So the jury will decree either that RCCL is guilt or not guilty of causing a wrongful death. Normally we expect that a "guilty" verdict is unanimous - correct? So wouldn't MW need 12 people to agree with his side of the story?

My understanding is that a civil vedict can be a simple majority in some cases. Unanimous not required. Depends on jurisdiction I suppose.

 

[Cool Cats]

Thank you, Oviedo.

In the civil case the defendant is RCCL. So the jury will decree either that RCCL is guilt or not guilty of causing a wrongful death. Normally we expect that a "guilty" verdict is unanimous - correct? So wouldn't MW need 12 people to agree with his side of the story?

In the US and depending on the State, some jury trials do not need all of the seated jurors to agree, and some jury trials do not use 12 jurors.

But now we are dealing with Puerto Rico and what their civil jury trial laws are.
So yes, I would like to know also, if there will be 12 jurors and if all 12 have to agree for a conviction.

Also in the US, the standard for conviction in a civil trial is less than for a criminal trial.

What's the difference between a civil judgment and a criminal conviction?

"And to convict in the criminal court, the case against the defendant must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

In a civil case for wrongful death, on the other hand, the plaintiffs have to prove only that the

defendant ’s intentional and unlawful conduct ( my opinion child endanderment) resulted in the victims ’ deaths.

The burden of proof in the civil case is preponderance of the evidence -- a much lesser burden than is required in a criminal case.

So, while a criminal jury might reasonably fail to find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and acquit an accused, a civil jury might also reasonably find by a preponderance of the evidence that a defendant ’s unlawful conduct results in civil liability."

 

[In vino veritas]

So, if I’m understanding correctly, for the civil case to be judged in favor of the Wiegand, it has to be proven that RCL did not meet industry standards and was aware of the deficit and did nothing to rectify.

If this is correct, MW will be fighting an uphill battle. And I think he’s fully aware of this as evidenced by all the absurdities he’s put forth. Furthermore, he’s seriously flirting with a libel lawsuit from RCL.

 

[Lawnguylander1964]

Pressed send too quickly

 

[loveandhugs]

We believe the criminal trial will have a jury, would a civil lawsuit as well, or is that simply decided by a judge?

IMHO I still feel this was planned because of the amount of time that SW looked out the window. I cannot believe this was an accident or he was acted recklessly. I do not know the reason, but in my heart I still feel this was planned. At first I did think it was an accident, but I have been on over 30 cruises, color blindness or not, it is obvious what windows are open. I have many visual impaired friends who agree that even they would know if a window was open or closed, having been on cruises alone and with me. My heart aches for Chloe and the fact that no one is taking responsibility for the actions of SW. It is all about lawsuits, Chloe seems to be forgotten, and not about taking responsibility for what caused her death. I was in Walmart today and a young boy about six years old was climbing all over the shopping cart, if it would have tipped over his mother would be suing Walmart, as it was she was right there by the cart and never, ever said anything to her son. Luckily he was not hurt. I know I am probably in the minority about my feelings, but the more I hear, the more I feel that SW was planning this all along. He knew that window was open!!!!!

 

[Only4Justice]

I remember reading that the prosecutor did not confirm this “deal” it was reported by his lawyer
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...rom-cruise-ship-offered-plea-deal-lawyer/amp/

I’m still hunting down the confirmation from the prosecutor that confirms a plea was offered - I’m sure it’s somewhere since we have discussed this for awhile now
JMO

I’ve never seen a reliable source for this. In fact, I kinda doubt they offered one. All imo

 

[they'll get you]

Sitting on the 11th deck of vision of the seas which is the same class ship as the freedom. In Barbados...

A woman just leaned out the window no problem- head sticking out looking down, and shouted to her husband on the dock below. Her 6-7 year old daughter got upset and said loudly- mommy don’t do that!!! She wouldn’t get near the window. Even a 6 year old gets that you could fall, S.A. was being an idiot in my mind

I’m not as adventurous, but my arm goes out the window past the frame not even stretching, and I’m 5’4.

Once I saw it live it finalized for me there’s no way he didn’t know it was open!

This case is filled with lies they think we’ll believe, I’m in agreement with an earlier post that the jurors need to get on a deck to actually see what he saw and felt (wind) when he dropped her.

Plus I see MOB cameras on deck 5 all the way down the muster stations...I can’t imagine they’d turn them off while in port...

hopeful that MW will not win here (since he’s been barking like a Yorkshire terrier from the beginning with no valid evidence) ...and the case all falls apart in court!

Photos Pammi, photos please?!

 

[Cool Cats]

So, if I’m understanding correctly, for the civil case to be judged in favor of the Wiegand, it has to be proven that RCL did not meet industry standards and was aware of the deficit and did nothing to rectify.

If this is correct, MW will be fighting an uphill battle. And I think he’s fully aware of this as evidenced by all the absurdities he’s put forth. Furthermore, he’s seriously flirting with a libel lawsuit from RCL.

Uphill battle indeed!

It is not a deficit because older ships were designed with those windows and they had to meet the industry standards or they would never have been used.

And RCL can't know of a deficit that is not there. There has to be a real deficit - and prior alarms raised over it - for them to be negligent.

I think they will prove grandpa was negligent - child endangerment - and prove that the ship was not.

Grandpa is guilty of the crime of reckless child endangerment.

Think of someone in a NY high rise doing this. Totally negligent and why is a ship different?

..2 Cents...

 

[oviedo]

Thank you, Oviedo.

In the civil case the defendant is RCCL. So the jury will decree either that RCCL is guilt or not guilty of causing a wrongful death. Normally we expect that a "guilty" verdict is unanimous - correct? So wouldn't MW need 12 people to agree with his side of the story?

Oops ! We need them to agree with him unanimously- this case turns me all around
JMO