IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #7

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

When I first saw that, in my opinion, obscene and perverse doll and the way it was dressed in the “recreation,” I gave the parents the benefit of the doubt that they were not involved in the particulars of it. JMHO now that they have gone on public record basically endorsing it by calling it “evidence,” they appear to be so preoccupied with SA that they are essentially okay with their 18-month old daughter being represented in an most inappropriate manner.

 

[ElizB]

I’ve never been on a cruise. Do we know if the railing had a caution sign?

 

[they'll get you]

But how can you have a decal or warning on thin air, the absence of glass? It makes no sense at all since the whole reason the tragedy happened was because CW was dropped through an open window. They are acting like there was no frame, no sill, no sliding window handle with which one could gauge distance and depth. His supposed colour blindness does not explain that.

Exactly!
If there was a decal on the glass it wouldn't have been there anyway.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

I’ve never been on a cruise. Do we know if the railing had a caution sign?

I've been on dozens of RCCL cruises, there is no caution sign on the railing.

 

[mheido67]

I’ve never been on a cruise. Do we know if the railing had a caution sign?

No warning sign on the railing. But everyone that boards the ship signs a cruise ticket contract that specifically prohibits climbing and sitting anything or anyone on or over any ships railing, interior or exterior.

 

[mheido67]

Exactly!
If there was a decal on the glass it wouldn't have been there anyway.

I think the implication is that there should be a warning decal on the window sill at the bottom of the operable unit. CAUTION: WINDOW MAY BE OPEN! And I guess at the end it could say DUH!

 

[ElizB]

No warning sign on the railing. But everyone that boards the ship signs a cruise ticket contract that specifically prohibits climbing and sitting anything or anyone on or over any ships railing, interior or exterior.

The contract is more than enough for me. It’s obvious SA didn’t read it or disregarded it.

 

[Cool Cats]

The contract is more than enough for me. It’s obvious SA didn’t read it or disregarded it.

Cool. This is significant if they have his signature!

 

[ElizB]

I think the implication is that there should be a warning decal on the window sill at the bottom of the operable unit. CAUTION: WINDOW MAY BE OPEN! And I guess at the end it could say DUH!

Are they going to argue a sticker on the windowsill would have stopped him? After everything else that didn’t, he would have stopped mid-hoisting to read a sticker.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

Cool. This is significant if they have his signature!

I would not put much weight in this. You have no choice to "sign" the contract in order to get your cruise ticket. You don't actually read it and you don't physically sign it, it's more like when you book the cruise you click the box that says "I agree" or something similar. There are these types of disclaimers when you go to amusement parks, baseball games, etc. The cruise contract would not preclude you from suing a cruise line, and winning, if something really was faulty with the ship. It's a similar concept to signs in parking garages or restaurants "we are not responsible for stolen belongings". Just because you hang a sign up doesn't mean you're not liable if you were negligent in some way. That's why if you get hit a ball park you can still sue and win if the injury was foreseeable and the stadium owner was negligent, like a ball net not expanding back far enough, no matter what the fine print on the back of your ticket says.

Having said all that, I don't think this family is going to win the lawsuit against RCCL. I don't think RCCL is going to settle either. To me it's pretty clear there was no way RCCL could have protected against this - it was not a "foreseeable" accident. SA lifted a baby up over a safety railing, held her in front of an open window and then dropped her. Even if you believe his ridiculous story he thought the window was closed - how does that translate to negligence on the part of RCCL? If you are 51 years old, and can't tell the difference between an open and shut window 9 inches in front of your face, you should NOT be in charge of babysitting an 18 month old.

 

[Cool Cats]

No warning sign on the railing. But everyone that boards the ship signs a cruise ticket contract that specifically prohibits climbing and sitting anything or anyone on or over any ships railing, interior or exterior.

Cruise Ship Accidents and Liability - FindLaw

Cruise Ship Accidents: Determining Negligence

In order to prevail, the plaintiff will want to find witnesses, use an expert witness, or present some kind of evidence pointing to the operator's negligence. Sometimes, proving negligence is as simple as proving noncompliance with a given regulation.

Again, cruise ship operators are not strictly liable for passenger injuries and must be found to have been negligent or acting with willful intent. The determination of negligence, under maritime law, primarily hinges on whether a "reasonably careful ship operator" likely would not have known about the hazard that caused the injury. The law allows for the understanding that is not possible for even the most careful ship operator to foresee every dangerous condition.

For example, a reasonably careful ship operator should have known a railing was rusted and cracked before a passenger plunged into the water after leaning on the rail.

 

[Lawnguylander1964]

Interesting Harvard Business Review article on warning labels

Consumer Warning Labels Aren’t Working

 

[ZoriahNZ]

And held her in front of or out of that open window for over 30 seconds before he dropped her.

And we're supposed to believe that during that length of time, while he was leaning heavily over the rail, rocking her back and forth, he didn't notice that the window was open.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

It's certainly not RCCLs fault if SA disregarded the clearly laid out rules. Not bothering to read the ToS contract he signed, and then later breaching the rules as defined, is not an adequate defense imo.

Do people get let off speeding tickets because they claim they didn't see the sign? Doubtful.

ETA: Oops, sorry for the double post I had thought that someone had commented after me.

 

[BeachSky]

Are they going to argue a sticker on the windowsill would have stopped him? After everything else that didn’t, he would have stopped mid-hoisting to read a sticker.

Possibly sticker blind...

 

[Cool Cats]

And held her in front of or out of that open window for over 30 seconds before he dropped her.

And we're supposed to believe that during that length of time, while he was leaning heavily over the rail, rocking her back and forth, he didn't notice that the window was open.

I think they mean he stood alone looking out the window for 30 seconds. I think he hoisted her from the floor then immediately thrust her forward to look out the obviously opened window.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

And held her in front of or out of that open window for over 30 seconds before he dropped her.

And we're supposed to believe that during that length of time, while he was leaning heavily over the rail, rocking her back and forth, he didn't notice that the window was open.

EXACTLY. His story is ludicrous but he's invested and committed to it now. Maybe he has even convinced himself it's true. The truth is that he was doing was the San Juan police and eyewitness accounts say he was doing, playing a "game" with her knowing the window was open, and he thought it would be cute or funny to pick her up and bring her closer to the window/air (knowing full well it was open) and she surprised him when she panicked or twisted herself, he wasn't prepared for her reaction or the quick motion and she squirmed out of his hands and he wasn't quick enough to grab her. Hence his initial statement "I dropped my baby". This is why you don't play games with a squirmy toddler 11 stories up in front of an open window. 100% reckless on his part, 0% liability on the part of the cruise ship. My big question is why would he do something so stupid in the first place, and why wasn't his reaction time fast enough to catch her? Maybe this is why he refused the breathalyzer.

 

[mheido67]

Are they going to argue a sticker on the windowsill would have stopped him? After everything else that didn’t, he would have stopped mid-hoisting to read a sticker.

That is exactly what they are arguing.

 

[musicaljoke]

In the video where Grandfather is walking toward the windows, does it look like he is aiming for the opened window, or the nearest window, or just a random window, or the only window where there is room to stand at the railing?

 

[JerseySleuth17]

In the video where Grandfather is walking toward the windows, does it look like he is aiming for the opened window, or the nearest window, or just a random window, or the only window where there is room to stand at the railing?

Imo he made a bee line for this particular window. If he walked in a straight line from the pole he had been leaning on he would have been in front of a window that was closed. He veered a left to this window, propped his arms around the railing and immediately bends at almost a 90 degree angle from his waist and tilts his head to the right. To me it's very clear he's looking out the open window at something to the right. If that window really had been closed his head would have either banged into it or been within 1-2 inches of the glass.