IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[neesaki]

[SIZE=4]]@neesaki[/SIZE] sbm Re: "not really 'allowed' to leave" and "on the sly?" I do not recall MSM to this effect but could have missed it. A link pls? Anyone?

Well ok, “they silently slipped away” ?

Vídeo será determinante en investigación sobre muerte de niña en crucero
Video will be decisive in investigation of death of girl on cruise
The tapes are expected to be examined tomorrow by the Prosecutor's Office and technical staff of the Police and Forensic Sciences Bureau

• Miguel Rivera Puig, THE VOCERO
  07/09/2019
  
  Copied and Snipped from article:

“The examination of the security camera recordings of the Freedom of the Seas cruise ship will be decisive in the investigation into the death of the girl Chloe Wiegand, who fell into a vacuum on Sunday from the arms of her maternal grandfather Salvatore Anello from the eleventh floor of the ship that was docked at the Pan American Dock.

The one-and-a-half-year-old girl died while hitting the pier.

Police sources insist that the maternal grandfather had the girl in his arms and that he appears sticking out of it because of the sale, from which he fell. Prosecutor Ivette Nieves, given Chloe's family's refusal to testify, could use the tapes in the eventual filing of negligence charges under the child protection law against Anello, a crime that has a maximum sentence of three years in jail.

The tapes are expected to be examined tomorrow by the prosecutor and technical personnel of the Police and the Forensic Sciences Bureau.

Anello, 52, residing in Indiana, arrived mid-morning at the Metropolitan Center for Investigations and Complaints (CMID), in Hato Rey, to be interviewed by Prosecutor Nieves. He arrived accompanied by his wife and the girl's paternal grandparents.

A while later, lawyer José Guillermo Pérez Ortiz appeared to represent him and the interview was postponed for the afternoon. The lawyer asked for time to interview his client.

Yesterday, Alan Wiegand and his wife Kimberly Schultz, Chloe's parents, arrived at the Prosecutor's Office accompanied by personnel from Royal Caribbean, the owner of the cruise ship where the tragic death occurred. They did not testify before the prosecutor and left the Prosecutor's Office.

Prosecutor Nieves issued a subpoena for the management of the hotel where they were staying to give her the room number to be able to quote them again. They did not answer the calls and the summons was left under the door.”

 

[neesaki]

I don’t recall this article, just thought interesting how they described SA’s actions.

Padres de niña que murió en crucero no testifican
Parents of girl who died on cruise do not testify
The girl was in her grandfather's arms when she fell into a vacuum

• Miguel Rivera Puig, THE VOCERO
  07/08/2019

SBM

“The girl was in the arms of her grandfather Salvatore when she fell into a vacuum at a height of 150 feet and died instantly when she hit the pier. It has not been determined if it was an accidental fall or if it fell while the grandfather played with his granddaughter, sat her or peeked her down the railing of the terrace where the pool is located.

Alan Wiegand, the girl's father, is a police officer in South Bend, Indiana. In social networks his coworkers rejected the version given by police officers in Puerto Rico that Grandpa had peeked Chloe out of a window and was rocking her out when she fell.”

 

[Wicked Strong]

I'm not savvy in law, so I hope this makes sense. If KW & AW decided to quit the lawsuit, would they be responsible for MW's fees and all the filing fees? Maybe there's no going back for them now?

I have been looking at cruise social media sites (I know I can't quote or link these), but almost everyone's opinion I read is against the parents. This is a cross section of many states, so I also checked out Florida's opinions. Again, IMO they will have a hard time finding a jury to agree with them.

I tried to research jury decisions, and the closest I've come up with if you have a trial with jury, you either need an unanimous verdict or at the least a majority (9-3 was listed) to win. Does anyone know if this is true.

IMO, if they actually believed that SA wasn't guilty, why didn't they put all their strength and effort into clearing him in the criminal trial, instead of launching the lawsuit at the same time. There apparently is enough time later to file the civil lawsuit.

MOO

 

[Chewy]

You make a good point. In their initial shock and horror, I could certainly understand the parents slipping into professional mode. There is speculation that AW took those initial photos on the ship of the crime scene (but never confirmed IIRC) that Winkleman trotted out. Well, LE does those sorts of things. As a lawyer, KSW getting the legal ball rolling...

The problem for me is the disconnect and contradiction of being in professional mode in the initial shock and horror phase is them or trusted designee not watching the video.

As always, struggling a bit with the wording here but hoping my train of thought is clear enough.

Think about it this way. If you were a lawyer and something like this happened to you, can't you imagine that all of your professional friends would reach out to you immediately and say "If there is anything I can do, just say the word." And then they followed through?

A friend of mine is sales person for medical equipment. And when her husband fell and became paralyzed from the neck down, immediately every doctor she worked with and every hospital jumped to help. Everyone commented on how "strong" she was. But basically when all your colleagues are involved, you subconsciously consider this without realizing and go into business mode. He died within 6 months and everyone marveled at her stoic acceptance. I could tell that a lot of people thought that was a nice way of covering up their judgment of her demeanor. His life insurance policy that paid off their home didn't help either. Everyone acted like she didn't care. But this happened ten years ago and to this day she has never recovered from losing the love of her life.

 

[Chewy]

I know that posters on this site think that SA's actions were deliberate because they just can't believe anyone could be this stupid, but having read quite a few news stories about children who died as a result of their parent's or caregiver's negligence - I believe it. Reading about what they did (or failed to do) my reaction was, what in the name of all that is holy was this person THINKING? They weren't thinking, that's the problem. SA didn't "think" that hoisting a toddler onto a window sill eleven stories up could be dangerous; he didn't "think" that holding her with only one arm could lead to disaster.

Like this example where a mother did the exact same thing at the zoo and dropped her 2 year old son into a wild dog exhibit by lifting him over the guard rail the exact same way. This is what I always thought of when I read this story. And why I believe he knew the window was open and was trying to give her a 'view."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pittsburgh-zoo-blames-mom-sons-deadly-mauling-flna8C11142824

I also believed that this mother should have been prosecuted. Many people said I was cruel and that she had "suffered enough." But to me this just opens the door for people to deliberately kill their kids and call it an "accident." People didn't believe me until the Ross Harris incident happened.

 

[they'll get you]

I’m on the Ovation of the Seas now which is only 4 yrs old and has windows which open around the pools, with NO wood railing. Still very safe with no tint. I cant download the pics until later.
Still I can’t fathom how he’d hold a child to the window!
Love from somewhere in the Pacific.

 

[Hughaskton]

I'm not savvy in law, so I hope this makes sense. If KW & AW decided to quit the lawsuit, would they be responsible for MW's fees and all the filing fees? Maybe there's no going back for them now?

I have been looking at cruise social media sites (I know I can't quote or link these), but almost everyone's opinion I read is against the parents. This is a cross section of many states, so I also checked out Florida's opinions. Again, IMO they will have a hard time finding a jury to agree with them.

I tried to research jury decisions, and the closest I've come up with if you have a trial with jury, you either need an unanimous verdict or at the least a majority (9-3 was listed) to win. Does anyone know if this is true.

IMO, if they actually believed that SA wasn't guilty, why didn't they put all their strength and effort into clearing him in the criminal trial, instead of launching the lawsuit at the same time. There apparently is enough time later to file the civil lawsuit.

MOO

Full disclosure, not an attorney, not even close, so this is just from what i know.

When you are talking criminal trial you need a unanimous verdict, it is up to the prosecution to prove that whatever the crime is, the jury believes beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime was committed. Be wary of “reasonable”. The doubt needs to be reasonable and with grandpa as you have read, most don’t find his excuse reasonable. Most don’t think after seeing the video he thought the window was really closed. He had backers, many left after the video. I think it will be damming first him at criminal trial. Of course I only know this case from reading and watching. I’m not the investigators or the defense, so I truly don’t know what will be fully presented to a jury.

in civil trials, it’s a majority rules, so it does not have to be unanimous. They need to show a preponderance of evidence. They have more flexibility and often don’t have the constraints of presenting information like a criminal trial does. This is why you sometimes you here about a not guilty in a criminal trial and a guilty in a civil. OJ is the best example I can think of that is widely known. If you followed that, there was a lot in the civil presented that the criminal either failed to do or were not permitted to present. But, that’s another story!

I hopefully kind of answered, but there are others here much more knowledgeable then me and can correct me on anything I said.

 

[they'll get you]

Before departing, as I walked over to an open window the the sounds from the dock grew louder and was unmistakable that the window was open, the noise of the forklifts ‘beeping’ in reverse and bumping up the gangway, workers yelling instructions, trolleys full of luggage being wheeled and the sound of the city in the background.
Maybe it was because I was aware of what I was listening to but it was obvious the window was open.
This ovation’s windows are not tinted like the Freedom and Voyager class ships. It’s a newer ship built in 2016 and there hasn’t been any problems with children being thrown overboard on either of these ships.

 

[fabvab]

I don’t recall this article, just thought interesting how they described SA’s actions.

Padres de niña que murió en crucero no testifican
Parents of girl who died on cruise do not testify
The girl was in her grandfather's arms when she fell into a vacuum

• Miguel Rivera Puig, THE VOCERO
  07/08/2019

SBM

“The girl was in the arms of her grandfather Salvatore when she fell into a vacuum at a height of 150 feet and died instantly when she hit the pier. It has not been determined if it was an accidental fall or if it fell while the grandfather played with his granddaughter, sat her or peeked her down the railing of the terrace where the pool is located.

Alan Wiegand, the girl's father, is a police officer in South Bend, Indiana. In social networks his coworkers rejected the version given by police officers in Puerto Rico that Grandpa had peeked Chloe out of a window and was rocking her out when she fell.”

I wonder if any of these coworkers have watched the video...and how they feel about it now.

 

[Hughaskton]

I wonder if any of these coworkers have watched the video...and how they feel about it now.

As someone in LE, I would be keeping my mouth shut if I was associated with the family in any way. I wouldn’t post on boards or on sm about it at all. They can have opinions of course, but they are not in the investigation or any part of it, they are getting his side and his side only and are obviously loyal to him. I get that, but facts are facts. I can at least look at it through an unbiased lens and read both accounts and come to an unbiased opinion. Let me reiterate, OPINION. I actually had no opinion at first. I wanted to see what each presented. I did think some things were odd on the family’s part, but grief is strange. The attorney, I can’t with him. I only started commenting after that video came out, because to me that was pretty hard evidence of wrongdoing. I can’t dispute that video, no matter how hard I try or how I wish this was just an unfortunate accident. He was deliberate in lifting her and chose to ignore what normal people would deem dangerous, like horrifyingly dangerous.

And if they are being honest with themselves, if they watched that video, even more reason to shhhhhh it.

 

[Razz]

I have read the Media timeline. I have viewed the videos numerous times but it is difficult to make anything out as I use my phone.

I'll wait and reserve judgement until all the videos become available. (I don't see how he could have dangled Chole out the window, however. His back appeared to remain straight after he picked her up and the stretch would have been obvious.) But again, I can't really see anything clearly.

In describing what happened from all the different media outlets goes from one description to another about how he held her, where he put her etc.

I look forward to the criminal trial.

 

[al66pine]

My earlier post:
Re: "not really 'allowed' to leave" and "on the sly?" I do not recall MSM to this effect but could have missed it. A link pls? Anyone?

Well ok, “they silently slipped away” ?

Vídeo será determinante en investigación sobre muerte de niña en crucero....
Miguel Rivera Puig, THE VOCERO
07/09/2019....
"Anello, 52, .... arrived mid-morning at the Metropolitan Center for Investigations and Complaints (CMID), in Hato Rey, to be interviewed by Prosecutor Nieves. He arrived accompanied by his wife and the girl's paternal grandparents.
A while later, lawyer José Guillermo Pérez Ortiz appeared to represent him and the interview was postponed for the afternoon. The lawyer asked for time to interview his client.
Yesterday, Alan Wiegand and his wife Kimberly Schultz, Chloe's parents, arrived at the Prosecutor's Office accompanied by personnel from Royal Caribbean, the owner of the cruise ship where the tragic death occurred. They did not testify before the prosecutor and left the Prosecutor's Office.
Prosecutor Nieves issued a subpoena for the management of the hotel where they were staying to give her the room number to be able to quote them again. They did not answer the calls and the summons was left under the door.”

@neesaki sbm Okay. Thanks for responding w link and quote.
From LE or prosecution's point of view, seems KSW, AW, & SA "slipped away" like you said.
From KSW, AW, & SA's point of view, seems maybe they exercised their 5th Amendment rights.
Thx again.

 

[neesaki]

My earlier post:
Re: "not really 'allowed' to leave" and "on the sly?" I do not recall MSM to this effect but could have missed it. A link pls? Anyone? @neesaki sbm Okay. Thanks for responding w link and quote.
From LE or prosecution's point of view, seems KSW, AW, & SA "slipped away."
From KSW, AW, & SA's point of view, seems maybe they exercised their 5th Amendment rights.
Thx again.

Hey, get what you’re saying, Al66pine. I just think that at least SA should have stayed and given a statement.

The man dropped an 18 month old baby out a window 150 feet from a concrete pier. He should have taken enough responsibility and at least given a statement. It wasn’t too much to ask considering the crime. If the man was a man of integrity, that’s what he would have done, IMO.
As my hubby would say, “hey, time to man up”. Again, jmo.. And. PEACE

 

[1&2&3]

After watching the video, I can understand why the parents do not want to view it.

How in the world could a parent ever watch the actual footage of the heinous act that killed their daughter? Add to this the person who caused this death is a loved member of your family.

 

[al66pine]

.... He should have taken enough responsibility and at least given a statement. It wasn’t too much to ask considering the crime. If the man was a man of integrity, that’s what he would have done, IMO.
As my hubby would say, “hey, time to man up”. Again, jmo.. And. PEACE

Yes, it would be have been interesting to know what he would have said then - early on. Waaay before his post-arrest interview, in which he said --- (my paraphrasing) at first he blamed himself.

 

[neesaki]

Yes, it would be have been interesting to know what he would have said then - early on. Waaay before his post-arrest interview, in which he said --- (my paraphrasing) at first he blamed himself.

Very good point. And there’s also that old saying “The truth will set you free”. I guess there could be something to that. Jmo

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

Took some time to find it but here’s the link saying Chloe’s brother arrived first then KSW then AW.

ETA: Thanks, @MsMarple .

 

[Kindred]

IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

Took some time to find it but here’s the link saying Chloe’s brother arrived first then KSW then AW.

ETA: Thanks, @MsMarple .

So the boy (10 years old is it? IIRC) was just wandering around the ship by himself? The way it's described it's like they just stumble onto the scene taken from an old silent film. Entrance state right. One at a time now, folks. And remember to over-exaggerate for the people in the back row. ACTION!

I went looking for that article because I was curious about what the heck video this is coming from. And surprise, surprise:

"Michael Winkleman, a US-based attorney representing Chloe's parents in a legal action against Royal Caribbean, said they are not prepared to make the harrowing video public.

But he did permit DailyMail.com to view the tape, which begins with Chloe leading her grandfather, wearing shorts and a T-shirt, away from the pool area seen in the photograph to the adjacent bank of glass floor to ceiling windows. "

Haunting final photo shows toddler before she fell from grandfather's arms to her death | Daily Mail Online

Winkleman's tape. The one that David Begnaud admitted seemed to be altered from the version of the one that Comay aired.

Now I really want to see the official video if we ever get the chance

 

[mheido67]

Like this example where a mother did the exact same thing at the zoo and dropped her 2 year old son into a wild dog exhibit by lifting him over the guard rail the exact same way. This is what I always thought of when I read this story. And why I believe he knew the window was open and was trying to give her a 'view."

Pittsburgh zoo blames mom for son's deadly mauling

I also believed that this mother should have been prosecuted. Many people said I was cruel and that she had "suffered enough." But to me this just opens the door for people to deliberately kill their kids and call it an "accident." People didn't believe me until the Ross Harris incident happened.

I agree with you. I find it virtually impossible to believe SA could have been so aloof that he could stand in front of an open window and not realize it was open. Unless he was intoxicated or otherwise medicated and I have seen no eveidence of either. That being the case I assume he had really bad judgement and held her in an opening he knew was open and disregarded the risk. I will offer this caveat though, the higher resolution cctv video may really help to clarify what actions SA took while standing in front of the window. Although I've got to imagine that since both PR LE and RCCL's counsel have surely seen the best quality video and both have agressively maintained that SA must have known the window was open I don't believe it shows anthing that would lead one to conclude he definitely thought there was glass. If it's clear that he was reaching with his right hand to try and touch glass that would be interesting, no? But again, I doubt that is visible.

So I don't believe he harmed her intentionally, I don't believe KW is a bad parent for leaving CW in SA's custody, I don't believe there was some conspiracy by a bunch of cold hearted people to profit off a childs tragic death. I do believe SA should be prosecuted for negligent homicide. And I believe that because it is warranted and because I believe what Chewy said, that not prosecuting cases like this tells people it's okay to harm a child like this because people will think the loss of the child is punishment enough. Not prosecuting these cases could embolden someone who really does want to harm a child. If a parent scalds their child in a steaming hot bath CPS will take the kid away and likely they will be prosecuted for negligence because they didn't check the water temp. Who would argue with that? This case is no different unless you truly believe SA was the victim of a hidden danger caused by the design on the ships windows. And I find that unbelievable. And I will go even father and say that if SA did somehow fail to realize there was no glass it still puts no liability on RCCL for the reasons they stated in their motion to dismiss, a reasonable person recognizes the clear and apparent danger posed by an open window and RCCL can't be expected to foresee the unlawful or dangerous actions of a third party.

 

[mheido67]

So the boy (10 years old is it? IIRC) was just wandering around the ship by himself? The way it's described it's like they just stumble onto the scene taken from an old silent film. Entrance state right. One at a time now, folks. And remember to over-exaggerate for the people in the back row. ACTION!

I went looking for that article because I was curious about what the heck video this is coming from. And surprise, surprise:

"Michael Winkleman, a US-based attorney representing Chloe's parents in a legal action against Royal Caribbean, said they are not prepared to make the harrowing video public.

But he did permit DailyMail.com to view the tape, which begins with Chloe leading her grandfather, wearing shorts and a T-shirt, away from the pool area seen in the photograph to the adjacent bank of glass floor to ceiling windows. "

Haunting final photo shows toddler before she fell from grandfather's arms to her death | Daily Mail Online

Winkleman's tape. The one that David Begnaud admitted seemed to be altered from the version of the one that Comay aired.

Now I really want to see the official video if we ever get the chance

Interesting, of course the ships cctv cameras would have continued capturing footage of the aftermath. We have not seen any of this because the leaked footage stops shortly after Chloe falls. Clearly the video provided by RCCL to PR LE and, via SA's defense counsel, to MW continues farther. Hope we get to see all that footage eventually.