IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

I'd just like to view the video that goes through the correct chain of evidence and not through a talking duck program.

Trust me, I would like also to see the “official” HD video as well. You know, the one that the parents maintain as late as December 11 of not having seen but continue to assert how SA would never, ever put their children in danger...but are doing their best to shut down as it appears to me.

It is my opinion SA would not be pleading guilty and accepting this deal without KSW’s approval.

Just. My. Thoughts. and Opinions.

 

[they'll get you]

Here are 2 pics of people at the open Windows from the Ovation of the Seas.
The have a slight tint of gray, about the same height and NO RAIL.
Same area around the pools.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Who is Moday? Are you writing about La Camay? If so La Camay is a popular Puerto Rico puppet (not duck). I've read but can't find the link now that La Camay is the gossipier, searcher of the truth.

It is very legit in Puerto Rico, definitely not Sesame Street. Political people have all appeared on this show and it is respected in PR.

No one knows who leaked the video to La Camay, but it is the video that RCCL has shown in still pictures from their cameras. I believe it is official.

MOO

SuperXclusivo - Wikipedia here is a good link that explains things

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Trust me, I would like also to see the “official” HD video as well. You know, the one that the parents maintain as late as December 11 of not having seen but continue to assert how SA would never, ever put their children in danger...but are doing their best to shut down as it appears to me.

It is my opinion SA would not be pleading guilty and accepting this deal without KSW’s approval.

Just. My. Thoughts. and Opinions.

Which I totally agree with.

 

[Razz]

Trust me, I would like also to see the “official” HD video as well. You know, the one that the parents maintain as late as December 11 of not having seen but continue to assert how SA would never, ever put their children in danger...but are doing their best to shut down as it appears to me.

It is my opinion SA would not be pleading guilty and accepting this deal without KSW’s approval.

Just. My. Thoughts. and Opinions.

Should RCCL be releasing still photos?
And the W's have requested the video be sent to them so they can view it at home but the PR authorities haves said no. Can't say that I blame the parents of not wanting to go to PR.

Also, I'd probably have admitted to throwing the baby out the window too if it would make it all stop. I'd do the 3 years too while knowing that there would never be enough time in jail to "equal" the death of Chole.

 

[In vino veritas]

I would think the time to settle would be before someone like MW throws six months of bad press at you, not after. I don't think RCI'll settle. They are very respectfully, but very firmly, fighting the case. I expect that to continue until the case ends. At which time the Wiegands will have repositioned themselves as safety advocates for cruise kids, and will probably have a nonprofit to go with it.

UNLESS...... the case gets dismissed . If it is to happen , it should be relatively soon, as MW has already filed the plaintiffs response to RCL’s re-filed MTD. I really and truly hope this happens.

 

[mheido67]

Should RCCL be releasing still photos?
And the W's have requested the video be sent to them so they can view it at home but the PR authorities haves said no. Can't say that I blame the parents of not wanting to go to PR.

Also, I'd probably have admitted to throwing the baby out the window too if it would make it all stop. I'd do the 3 years too while knowing that there would never be enough time in jail to "equal" the death of Chole.

RCCL didn’t really ‘release’ anything. They filed the photos as part of a court motion. Unless those documents are sealed for some specific reason they are public record.

The full definition video was also filed with the court by RCCL in the civil suit. The Wiegand’s lawyer has access to that information. If they wanted to see it they would not need to go to PR.

And for the record I don’t believe I would ever admit to a crime I know I did not commit.

 

[In vino veritas]

I can see them doing the nonprofit thing. Could also see them losing interest if they lose their suit. These times are making me very cynical.

I, too, am quite cynical. I’ve always believed that the Wiegands came out so aggressively condemning RCL from the onset because they were confident the cruise line would settle quickly to avoid bad publicity in light of a toddlers death.
When this immediate settlement did not transpire, the family , especially KSW, came out with more guns blazing. The unbelievable audacity of asking PR prosecutors to drop charges against SA so the family could properly grieve was the clincher for me as far as any remaining sympathy for them. I really don’t know what is in their heads or hearts, but Chloe almost seems forgotten. I’d like to believe they’d set up a non-profit, especially if they do receive proceeds from this travesty.... but I seriously doubt it.
In the meantime.... I anxiously check news sources, hoping for news of a dismissal by the federal judge.

 

[al66pine]

Mandating Safety Measures? Court or Congress?

.... The point isn't that SA dropped her out the window. It's that it is POSSIBLE for people to drop a child out the window or for a child to climb out the window. ...When you start to see people doing these things the idea that you have to wait for a bunch of people to die to do anything won't fly in a court of law. Once they have seen the potential problem with these windows if they don't do something about it, they are being grossly negligent for any future situation similar to this....

@Chewy bbm sbm
First, Chewy, not specifically ^ post, but a continuing theme in your posts, generally is --- RCL should do something. I agree RCL should review Fr/Seas or entire fleet to determine what 'safety measures.' if any, to make in the near future. But imo that is a decision for the corp, not this court to make, and likely not any court.
BBM 1. What should this US Dist. Ct do re this case?
Review the pleadings, motions, other filings before the court from both parties, and make a decision on the case/issues before it. Just like any other case. May/may not result in trial; could be $$$ damages award or not.
In the US, a court is the (most) approp. forum for these parents to seek a remedy for RCL's alleged negligent window design-construction which allegedly was the proximate cause of their daughter's death, and their Complaint explicitly demands $$$ damages as the only remedy sought.
Despite MW's & parent's stmts/blather about other countless children whose lives they purportedly want to save, the Complaint does not seek injunction, for court to order RCL to modify windows, or install new safer, windows.
BBM 2. Waiting for people to die? What about future dangers?
The very real possibility that dozens or hundreds (of 200,000 or 2,000,000?) future passengers could hold a child up to a window and drop child is not an issue for this court to address in this lawsuit. The issue is simply not before the court to decide. If these parents had asked the court to order RCL to make change/improvements to prevent those hypothetical injuries or deaths that may or may not occur in the future, imo parents would hit a brick wall. Not a function of the courts to write legislation.

The issue of possible injuries or deaths in the future is one for RCL to address by the method(s) it thinks approp. Maybe stickers/decals on operable windows, maybe four inch maximum open windows, or guards, or who-knows? Maybe no change. Or maybe thru changes in booking/boarding procedures, actually requiring each adult passenger (or age 12+ y/o?) to sign Guest Conduct Policy, to ack receipt & agreement. IOW let each cruise line make decisions.

A toddler being held close to/out of a window and dropped. Will there be a next time? If so, next month, or 20 yrs? How many? At a certain point, Congress will jump in to mandate certain 'safety measures' for cruise ships. And the required safety measures can then be uniform for the defined classes of ships.
jmo

 

[Wehwalt]

UNLESS...... the case gets dismissed . If it is to happen , it should be relatively soon, as MW has already filed the plaintiffs response to RCL’s re-filed MTD. I really and truly hope this happens.

If it is dismissed, bet they appeal to the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals.

 

[1&2&3]

In the first place, who in their right mind could have ever thought or dreamed of a passenger holding a child out of a window? Much less to have imagined a child being thrown out a window in broad daylight!

We will never know which of these happened, dropped or thrown. The sickening result is the child was killed.

 

[SoCalDavidS]

The fact that most of us are in agreement that the Judge should and might throw out the case, tells me one thing.

The Judge is Not going to throw it out, and the lawsuit will continue. This story will not go away anytime soon, IMO.

 

[In vino veritas]

If it is dismissed, bet they appeal to the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals.

Out of curiosity, why do you think this? I value your opinion and insights, as your previous posts have been very instructional for me

 

[mheido67]

The fact that most of us are in agreement that the Judge should and might throw out the case, tells me one thing.

The Judge is Not going to throw it out, and the lawsuit will continue. This story will not go away anytime soon, IMO.

Agreed. I would be shocked if it gets tossed at this stage. I don’t believe the case as presented by MW has any merit but I can see the judge allowing it to proceed to discovery.

 

[al66pine]

Proximate Cause. Ultimate Cause?

When dealing with causation there is both a proximate and an ultimate cause. ...

Proximate and ultimate causation - Wikipedia

Thank you for that info: I am familiar with proximate cause but was unfamiliar with ultimate cause - in fact in all of the pleadings I have reviewed in civil cases, i have never seen the term "ultimate cause'.

@Chewy sbm Thanks you for ^ interesting link, which gives examples of these term being used in the following fields:1. In biology, 2 In philosophy, 3 In sociology, but I'm not noticing law-related references.
May be helpful to read/refresh from these and/or related articles, oriented to causation in law:
Proximate cause - Wikipedia
Causation (law) - Wikipedia specifically this section Intervening cause

@ilovewings
Like you, I do not recall any civil pleadings or briefs using the term "ultimate cause."
Proximate cause and intervening cause, yes.

 

[Wehwalt]

Out of curiosity, why do you think this? I value your opinion and insights, as your previous posts have been very instructional for me

Because I believe they want to keep this going for reasons of their own. I can't give you exact reasons, but that is what I think they want. Thank you for the kind words.

Federal appeals are not difficult to do. I did one in a case back in the 1990s (I did not win the appeal, but I wasn't involved in the trial either). If they've invested this much time and effort in a case, I think they'd roll the dice with an appeal to the 11th Circuit.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Agreed. I would be shocked if it gets tossed at this stage. I don’t believe the case as presented by MW has any merit but I can see the judge allowing it to proceed to discovery.

The more it proceeds, the worse MW and the family will look.

 

[loveandhugs]

I will go to my grave believing his actions were both purposeful and intentional...JMHO of course.
There is no way the man didn’t know the window was open IMO of course.
You are certainly free to have your own thoughts and opinions, but my take on this is quite different.
Personally, I have no problems “hanging SA out to dry.”
An innocent 18 month child died as a direct result of his actions. Most reasonable people would quite rightly predict catastrophic consequences.

You and I have the same opinion.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

You have never been on a cruise ship, have you? I am on RCCL’s Symphony of the Seas right now. They are vessels made for leisure, not idiot-proof bunkers.

I believe there was more than simple idiocy involved in Chloe's death. There was greed, evil and pride involved. IMHO.

 

[Lawnguylander1964]

So SA gets probation in a system where his step-daughter and step-son-in-law work and the community is sympathetic to his situation.

Not really a punitive sentence there.

I don't think the judge will poke SA. The family doesn't need to hear SA tell the story and admit anything. I think this will be an uneventful hearing.