IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[Wehwalt]

Yes we shall see who is right. As I said I think they will settle with the parents and put up some safety measures by the windows to cover their butts. But let's see if you are right and they won't give them a cent and will do nothing except on future models. No point in arguing about it. We'll see. I
<modsnip> We'll have to wait and see.

If they were going to do that, they would have started already. Making changes for safety is not admissible as evidence that there was an unsafe condition before, otherwise no one would ever do it.

 

[In vino veritas]

If they were going to do that, they would have started already. Making changes for safety is not admissible as evidence that there was an unsafe condition before, otherwise no one would ever do it.

Agreed. And, as I see it, there are already significant safety measures in place:
1. Tinted windows... very easy to discern open vs closed
2. 3”wide wooden railing 15-18” away from window
3. Height of railing @ 42”

If an individual wants to ignore safety measures, they absolutely will. The addition of stickers will not alter that persons actions.

 

[neesaki]

Where is the video that clearly shows him sticking his head out the window? I've seen several but not one where I can conclusively say he did that. He just looks like he's leaning over the railing to me. Obviously he knew the window was open but is there another angle that shows him leaning out?

It's clear on this one, IMO, that he's leaning out the window. Starting between the 28 and 40 second mark. It's not the first but the second video down in the DM article.

Grandfather who dropped toddler to her death from cruise ship window will plead GUILTY | Daily Mail Online

 

[Area52]

Because it's a window and it's intermittenly able to be opened by people on the boat. If the windows ALL were opened it would be different. The balcony levels are wide open. What's the difference in a hotel with a balcony and a window?

A person instinctively knows the dangers associated wit h a balcony. Think about the height of the railing around the open air levels. They have put thought into creating a reasonable amount of customer protection. Dropping her out the wind is beyond ridiculous. No one could have anticipated something that bad. But now that it's happened it's going to raise concerns about potential problems in the future. And frankly it's got more to do with distracted parenting and the way people don't watch their kids the way they used to because they are constantly on their phone. I often marvel at the difference when I took my kids to a playground. Cell phones didn't exist back then. I'd usually be bored and watching them and talking to other moms.

It's different these days. Personally I think the reason he took one hand off of her is he was trying to take a picture of her with his phone.

I have traveled on this cruise ship. As I stated earlier, the railing in front of the window is actually higher than railing on a balcony stateroom. Again, if you take SA out of the equation, Chloe is still alive. You cant fix stupid!

 

[al66pine]

Proximate Cause & Intervening Cause. (Ultimate Cause?)

Yes, very interesting. I wasn't suggesting it as a legal term. More just as an understanding of different types of culpability. .... a similar situation would be if a NYC bus driver crashed a bus while drinking and driving...

@Chewy sbm bbm Aside from a few side ventures into moral culpability, generally this thread has been discussing legal causation & legal culpability (two different issues), so that's why I linked to some relevant info. (Repeating the links here, re causation in law:
Proximate cause - Wikipedia
Causation (law) - Wikipedia specifically this section Intervening cause)

BTW, disagreeing that a drinking NYC bus operator crashing bus is similar to Chloe's case & RCL. The person who held Chloe at window & dropped her may have been drinking, or mentally or physically impaired, but he was neither an RCL employee nor RCL agent, so was not subject to RCL employment or direction. Not similar the case at hand. I'm going to try to stay on topic & not veer off into situations or hypotheticals raising different legal principles. jmo

The 'ultimate cause' terminology and usage you linked would be (more) helpful if this was a biology, philosophy, or sociology discussion. Thanks for the link. Every day I learn something new on this site.

 

[LietKynes]

Doubtful SA was trying to take a picture of Chloe with his phone.
Speaking of which... the phones of SA and KW need to be forensically examined.
Not to mention SA is sticking his head and the upper part of his body outside that window in that video.
SA knew it was open and how far below the concrete was.
From his first statement , he said he "watched her fall ", and he "looked for her on the floor".
Question : Did he mean the floor or the ground ?
Since the lower windows are bowed out a bit (convex) if you're standing there you can lean forward and see the ground/water below ; this is evident in the helpful photos provided by "they'll get you".

 

[LietKynes]

But here is the thing---Grandpa knew it was open. So how would warning stickers have changed anything?

They wouldn't have. No one has any problem knowing the windows might open.

I am all for the Wiegand's winning millions on the condition that all of it goes towards "fixing" that ship.
If, not, look for more babies' being hurled out of cruise ship windows.
This is a general statement : Sad when some people consider the death of a child to be a lottery ticket.
Haleigh Cumming's parents knew she was dead and yet begged for donations to "help find her".
It was then squandered on drugs and wasted in other pursuits.

 

[LietKynes]

It's clear on this one, IMO, that he's leaning out the window. Starting between the 28 and 40 second mark. It's not the first but the second video down in the DM article.

Grandfather who dropped toddler to her death from cruise ship window will plead GUILTY | Daily Mail Online

Thanks for the link !
Interesting how he doesn't have to stand on his toes to do this.

Unlike the fake photo that Winkleman put out with a slim, small man of about 5'3" who would have to stand on tiptoe or need a stool to look out of the window.

If you can't win honestly, lying works.
This goes for more than Winkleman.
("I thought there was glass." "If it were not for RCCL, my daughter would be alive." "Chloe wasn't just a sports fan, she was a foodie, a fashionista, and she watched the movie "Frozen" more than once per day.")

 

[LietKynes]

Even if winning their lawsuit and collecting millions for the family, means only "pocket change" to RCCL; I think it sets a dangerous precedent and hopefully RCCL will stand firm !
The cruise line could be bankrupted in the future from lawsuits.
Welding the windows shut and preventing passengers from enjoying a balcony view of the ocean will mean fewer people will book cruises.
Imo.

 

[mheido67]

There are two members of WS whom I want to acknowledge: Kindred, who has brought so many documents to us, and Oviedo, who created our excellent media timeline. The short video here bears watching for anyone who wasn't part of this case discussion from the beginning. Most of you have seen this, but I'm posting for the few members who more recently joined us. This video and the LaComay video were both key to my understanding of the case. As well, this video shows how windows on cruise ships differ from hotel windows in form and function. The media timeline is a treasure trove for anyone wanting to get up to speed with discussions here. Thank you again, Oviedo!

Those windows are awfully small! [sarcasm]

 

[JulieBEMT]

Love your posts. My friends are sailing on adventure of the seas today!

If you're in touch with them at all, tell them to look for the woman on the purple scooter and introduce themselves.

 

[Wicked Strong]

I just went back and watched the videos in the media thread that show deck 11 & 12, also the cruise ship video of the ship and activities. In all of the pictures, there is definitely a difference between open and closed windows. Even if SA said he couldn't see color, he would have to notice dark and light spaces?

Since we assume he will get the plea deal, he won't have to testify. But when the lawsuit case is heard, those pictures, even without him in them would show to a jury that anyone that can see (color blind or not) will see a difference. The only point that MW can base his case on is whether there should be windows that can be opened and that RCCL is aware of the danger. IMO, there is not a standard that says anything about windows opening or solid. The minute the jury sees any video of SA with Chloe, they will see how SA was reckless in how he lifted Chloe. I don't even think it will matter if the jury doesn't see for certain that his head was out the window, only that he was reaching Chloe far over the safety rail. He held her so close to the supposedly wall of glass that she is hidden by the side posts. MW's only hope is to garner sympathy with jurors, maybe dwelling on pictures of Chloe with SA. I don't know if that will be allowed because this is not the criminal case where Chloe is the victim.

MOO

 

[loveandhugs]

If you're in touch with them at all, tell them to look for the woman on the purple scooter and introduce themselves.

I just sent them a text message. Her husband likes karaoke, he is Russ, she is Sheila. Have a great cruise. Just saw the ship leave on a webcam of Port Everglades. Do not know how to post pictures. I have a picture of Adventure leaving port, when you return maybe I could share it with you.

 

[loveandhugs]

I just saw the ships leaving Port Everglades on a webcam. So many of the ships show people standing at railings or balconies waving good bye. Anyone could throw someone over the railing which is only chest high. So I guess that could be a safety issue, but most people know not to do that. So if the windows are not safe, what about the railings. These were four or five ships, all different cruise lines. Do we punish everyone for the actions of a few?

 

[Wicked Strong]

I just saw the ships leaving Port Everglades on a webcam. So many of the ships show people standing at railings or balconies waving good bye. Anyone could throw someone over the railing which is only chest high. So I guess that could be a safety issue, but most people know not to do that. So if the windows are not safe, what about the railings. These were four or five ships, all different cruise lines. Do we punish everyone for the actions of a few?

When I was viewing the pictures from the media thread, the water areas on deck 11 are open to the sky and of course deck 12. I thought like you, anyone could throw or drop something over the railing from deck 12 onto deck 11 and the people below. It's that way all over, from my local center for performing arts to shopping malls.

MOO

 

[neesaki]

When I was viewing the pictures from the media thread, the water areas on deck 11 are open to the sky and of course deck 12. I thought like you, anyone could throw or drop something over the railing from deck 12 onto deck 11 and the people below. It's that way all over, from my local center for performing arts to shopping malls.

MOO

Yes, isn’t it bizarre how “some people” think that all of free society should loose their freedoms over the mistakes and sins of a few wack jobs and psychopaths? And in this case, only one. Almost seems a bit Orwellian. Scary, IMO.

 

[In vino veritas]

SA still has to have a hearing in front of the judge in PR regarding the change of plea to guilty. Still have not seen any date scheduled for this hearing.

I have no legal background, but from the readings I’ve done, the acceptance of the plea is not a foregone conclusion. She could reject the plea, or put stipulations on it, or ask specific questions.

One reason I found interesting for rejection or modification of a plea( eg: leniency of deal terms) was the character of the defendant. I am hoping that this judge makes an accurate assessment of SA’s lack of character and adjusts the terms of the plea deal accordingly.

While I’m on the fence about prison time, I DO think the terms as stated in the media are way too lenient. IMO

 

[Safetybug]

Thanks for the link !
Interesting how he doesn't have to stand on his toes to do this.

Unlike the fake photo that Winkleman put out with a slim, small man of about 5'3" who would have to stand on tiptoe or need a stool to look out of the window.

If you can't win honestly, lying works.
This goes for more than Winkleman.
("I thought there was glass." "If it were not for RCCL, my daughter would be alive." "Chloe wasn't just a sports fan, she was a foodie, a fashionista, and she watched the movie "Frozen" more than once per day.")

BBM

funny how SA’s mug shot shows he is 5 foot ELEVEN inches

so much smoke & mirrors from the wizard of oz

 

[In vino veritas]

BBM

funny how SA’s mug shot shows he is 5 foot ELEVEN inches

so much smoke & mirrors from the wizard of oz

Yep. 5’11”. Or 71 inches tall.
The railing is 42” tall. SA is 29” taller than the railing. Granted the body will not be able to hinge forward to fully extend the surplus 29”, but it will have quite is bit of leverage. And the window, at most, is 18” from the outside of the railing. So it is NOT “ physically impossible” to breach the window.
And viewing that video again for about the 30th time, SA gets quite a bit of bend when he leans over the railing. He absolutely knew that window was open.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Yep. 5’11”. Or 71 inches tall.
The railing is 42” tall. SA is 29” taller than the railing. Granted the body will not be able to hinge forward to fully extend the surplus 29”, but it will have quite is bit of leverage. And the window, at most, is 18” from the outside of the railing. So it is NOT “ physically impossible” to breach the window.
And viewing that video again for about the 30th time, SA gets quite a bit of bend when he leans over the railing. He absolutely knew that window was open.

I had really wanted to hear the eyewitnesses, especially if SA did try it first on a different deck and got chased off.