IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[BetteDavisEyes]

^ Freedom of the Seas wasn't sailing until 8:00 or 8:30PM, so it's possible that passengers from the U.S. could fly in to San Juan during the day and still arrive in time to board the ship before sail-away.

 

[Kindred]

^ Freedom of the Seas wasn't sailing until 8:00 or 8:30PM, so it's possible that passengers from the U.S. could fly in to San Juan during the day and still arrive in time to board the ship before sail-away.

They could but it's always strongly advised against just because you have no idea what might happen with your air travel (bumped due to overbooking, delays, cancelations from weather, etc). That doesn't mean people aren't stupid enough to try it but still.

I'm pretty sure all reports are that they had been on the ship for several hours by the time the incident occurred though. At least long enough to reasonably assume that if any of the adults were drinking that they'd have been able to have a few by then.


**edit just adding this here instead of making a new post accoring to their FAQs it says "Please note: All guests must be checked-in and onboard the ship no later than 90 minutes prior to the published sailing time or you will not be permitted to sail."

When should I arrive at the cruise port terminal? | Royal Caribbean Cruises

I'm still leaning towards they probably arrived in PR at least the night before though

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

They could but it's always strongly advised against just because you have no idea what might happen with your air travel (bumped due to overbooking, delays, cancelations from weather, etc). That doesn't mean people aren't stupid enough to try it but still...

I've been on 35+ cruises since the mid-'80s. We almost always fly to the port city a day or two before sailing. That said, many passengers don't want to spend money on hotel rooms and choose to fly to port on the day of the cruise. DH and I generally cruise during the winter and wouldn't risk missing the ship due to inclement weather in Detroit, but we frequently meet passengers from metro-Detroit who fly to Fort Lauderdale the day of the cruise so they don't have to spend $200+ for a hotel room near Port Everglades.

 

[justbreathe]

Agree, there are no winners here.

The lawyers win.

 

[justbreathe]

BBM. That's just not true. To charge a grandfather in the death of his own grandchild after everyone who witnessed the incident saw that he was beside himself with horror and grief is a very serious thing to do. There is no way that he would be charged without solid evidence in a case like this.

The emotional implications are huge.

Let me add though that speeding tickets do not infer a murderous intent. That makes zero sense to me.

This was not intentional, IMO. To suggest that this man knowingly placed his baby granddaughter there and dropped her so his family could sue -not even him- doesn't make sense. It would be too easy for someone to see what he was doing, there's no benefit to him and speeding violations imply he's violent?

No.

But no justice department is going to charge a grieving grandpa who likely continues to suffer greatly, without solid proof that he grossly neglected his duty of care such that a baby died as a result.

I agree with those who feel perhaps the delay was to allow the family to grieve.

Their going to put a sobbing elderly man on the stand who is described as his grandaughter's best friend. Who never put her in harm's way prior to this. That's going to be some tough optics. He may not even decide to stick around for trial.

I don't think they would dare charge in a case like this without clear evidence that he committed a crime due to his actions of placing the baby where he did. I'm betting the video shows he was aware the window was open and kept her there regardless. And then he lost his grip.

Speeding and seatbelt tickets show pattern of reckless disregard for safety.

 

[justbreathe]

Well the video shows the baby falling.

But a person could, like, stop watching before then?

 

[justbreathe]

BBM. Do you have a link for this because I sure don't remember police saying this.

I don't believe it is fair to generalize that the man had been drinking. Not all elderly people drink. If he was holding the baby and standing there, where exactly was his drink?

JMO

In his belly?

 

[Kakidoll]

I live in Florida and STILL go the night before to the port (unless its Tampa and only an hour away). I've had friends MISS the ship, flights get moved and cancelled ALL the time. Going to San Juan, i'd be there 2 days early. But none of that matters in this case. Grandpa was wrong is what he did. I'm hoping it was an accident and just 'not thinking' straight. But the more they denied in the beginning, and it felt more and more like a cover up of SOMETHING. I don't think it was intentional at all... but negligent... absolutely. Accidental? hopefully.

 

[justbreathe]

That's in the U.S. This case is in Puerto Rico and I'm not familiar with their laws or how their justice system works. In the English language, murder is a synonym for homicide. By definition, it is death caused by another person. I'd like to know what Puerto Rico's definition of the charge means and what is the penalty.

Spanish is the official language of Puerto Rico and I'm assuming the trial will be in Spanish.

JMO

PR is the US

 

[justbreathe]

That's great. Why hasn't the cruise line turned the video over to the family? The family's attorney was publicly asking for them months ago.

JMO

<modsnip>
I have a pretty good feeling their criminal defense attorneys in PR have seen it. And the parents could have seen it, too. They refused. And instead of dealing with the reality (of the video) they instead invented a fantasy where toddlers levitate to open windows on their own, no one can see blue tint or feel air, railings are appropriate toddler climbing toys, and public glass is to both banged upon and smudged with grubby hands. MOO

 

[Kakidoll]

People who sue for wrongful death are very angry and the lawsuit is an outlet for their anger. It is rarely about the money. The parents of the little boy who was attacked by an alligator at Disney didn't have to sue. Disney stepped up. Today, those still grieving parents have turned around to financially help the families with sick children. Disney built a memorial to their son at Disney World.

Compare that to this case where the cruise line still refuses to hand over the security video to the family.

JMO

i think this USED to be true.. But anymore... with so many getting million dollar settlements from cities/counties etc, its become about the money to MANY people. Maybe not, for instance, the mom... but the stepfather... the father who hasn't been a part of the victims life... they seem to come out of the woodwork in some of these cases.

 

[justbreathe]

In response to the point most respectfully bolded by me...

a direct quote from NHS England.

“How old is an older person?
Generally, someone over the age of 65 might be considered an older person. However, it is not easy to apply a strict definition because people can biologically age at different rates so, for example, someone aged 75 may be healthier than someone aged 60. Instead of simply age, ‘frailty’ has a bigger impact on their likelihood to require care and support.”

Even this doesn’t say 51 is any where near “old.” SA looks 65 imo, but he is only 51. 53? Something like that. Now why he looks more than a decade older than his age, who knows?

 

[Lilibet]

PR is the US

OT Civics lesson: Thank you for pointing out that Puerto Rico is a part of the U.S. Unfortunately, that fact is not always validated even by ones in government who (should) know better. That being said, their laws and definitions of various types of homicide could vary, just as they do among the 50 states. I haven’t googled the specifics, but it would be an interesting project for the purposes of this discussion.

This article has a graphic illustrating similarities and differences.
The Relationship Between Puerto Rico and the U.S.

 

[justbreathe]

LBM

Re. the bolded : Cruise ship death: Charging grandfather of toddler who fell from window "pouring salt" on family's wounds, attorney says - CBS News
"He was extremely hysterical," Kimberly Wiegand said...."
CBS is reporting this as proven fact. Point made.

Was he 'hysterical' ? What did the video show ? Was it faked ?
Don't get me wrong.
It's nice that the parents are defending SA so vigorously.
But it's weird.

From the link :
"People just love him here in the county," said his boss, St. Joseph County auditor Mike Hamann.
Hamann described Anello as a selfless man. "He's got a servant's heart, as we say. And just one of the most wonderful human beings that you could ever meet," Hamann said...."
It's doubtful that this boss, Hamann, would say this if SA dangled and dropped the bosses' baby or grandchild out an 11 story window !
Imo.

I don’t see why his being hysterical would mean it wasn’t his fault?

 

[MyBelle]

i think this USED to be true.. But anymore... with so many getting million dollar settlements from cities/counties etc, its become about the money to MANY people. Maybe not, for instance, the mom... but the stepfather... the father who hasn't been a part of the victims life... they seem to come out of the woodwork in some of these cases.

I think in this case both parents and the grandparents were loving and very much a part of CW's life. I don't believe their civil lawsuit is about the money. I think it is about exactly what the mother said: child safety and making sure it doesn't happen to another family.

If our society didn't care about safety, there would be no laws about car seats for children.

JMO

 

[Lilibet]

I don’t see why his being hysterical would mean it wasn’t his fault?

Right. I have no doubt that he loved Chloe. Of course he was hysterical! I have no doubt that SA is liked and admired in his community, as the article indicates. He may very well believe there was glass, and he may be very careful with his grandkids as his daughter says (despite his seatbelt and speeding violations). BUT, wonderful people can do stupid, negligent things on occasion, and when someone dies as a result there are legal consequences that should not be minimized and avoided.

"He was extremely hysterical," Kimberly Wiengang said. "The thing that he has repeatedly told us is, 'I believed that there was glass.' He will cry over and over. At no point ever, ever has Sam ever put our kids in danger."

Incidentally, this article also makes clear that SA sat Chloe on the railing to bang on the glass, for any who doubt this.

“The Weigands say the 18-month-old loved banging on the glass at her brother's hockey games. That's why her grandfather sat her on a wooden rail in front of what he apparently thought was a wall of enclosed glass windows.”

Charging grandfather in girl's cruise ship death "pouring salt" on family's wounds, attorney says

 

[MyBelle]

PR is the US

Puerto Rico has its own constitution, government and justice system including its own supreme court.

Government of Puerto Rico

 

[gitana1]

But a person could, like, stop watching before then?

Good luck with that.

 

[Montrealaise]

That's your opinion. If there was a baby seated on the railing--and absolutely no warning posted about the railing or the windows--then that is the fault of the business owner, not the family of the child.

There are ample laws in place about attractive nuisances. A cruise line is not exempt from following the law.

JMO

What warning should there be? "Do not place children on railing in front of open window"?

 

[justbreathe]

Wonder if the child banged on windows in their home?

Actually I don’t give much credibility to the “banging on the glass” reason for holding her up in the window. It wasn’t mentioned until the lawyer stated it later so I think it was an afterthought. Or after suggestion.

Banging on a window in what was basically a public lounge area seems off. Imagine just relaxing on deck, enjoying the breeze... Some guy wanders over with a toddler and encourages her to BANG BANG BANG on the window. Even if she was sitting on the floor. BANG BANG BANG! It’s like - no.