IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[IceIce9]

The grandfather IS charged with negligent homicide which is murder, isn't it?

No, there are differences between murder and negligent homicide. Murder means intent to kill.


From uslegal.com

Negligent homicide is the killing of another person through gross negligence or without malice. It often includes death that is the result of the negligent operation of a motor vehicle, which includes the operation of a boat or snowmobile. It is characterized as a death caused by death by conduct that grossly deviated from ordinary care. Negligent homicide may be charged as a lesser-included offense of manslaughter. It is also sometimes referred to as "involuntary manslaughter". State laws vary, so local law should be consulted for specific requirements.

murder: killing a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority.

 

[al66pine]

The grandfather IS charged with negligent homicide which is murder, isn't it?

No. Seems bolded Involuntary Manslaughter is closest to NegHomicide imo.
"In the United States, the law regarding murder varies by jurisdiction. In most US jurisdictions there is a hierarchy of acts, known collectively as homicide, of which first degree murder and felony murder are the most serious, followed by second degree murder, followed by voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter which are not as serious, and ending finally in justifiable homicide, which is not a crime. However, because there are at least 52 relevant jurisdictions, each with its own criminal code, this is a considerable simplification."
"...States have adopted several different schemes for classifying murders by degree. The most common separates murder into two degrees (first and second degree murder), and treats voluntary and involuntary manslaughter as separate crimes that do not constitute murder.[12]
First-degree murder
Any intentional murder that is willful and premeditated with malice aforethought. Felony murder, a charge that may be filed against a defendant who is involved in a dangerous crime where a death results from the crime,[12] is typically first-degree.[13]
Second-degree murder
Any intentional murder with malice aforethought, but is not premeditated or planned in advance.[14]
Voluntary manslaughter
Sometimes called a crime of passion murder, is any intentional killing that involves no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed". Both this and second-degree murder are committed on the spot under a spur-of-the-moment choice, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second-degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be mitigated to voluntary manslaughter.[15]
Involuntary manslaughter
A killing that stems from a lack of intention to cause death but involving an intentional or negligent act leading to death. A drunk driving–related death is typically involuntary manslaughter (see also vehicular homicide, causing death by dangerous driving, gross negligence manslaughter and causing death by criminal negligence for international equivalents). Note that the "unintentional" element here refers to the lack of intent to bring about the death. All three crimes above feature an intent to kill, whereas involuntary manslaughter is "unintentional", because the killer did not intend for a death to result from their intentional actions. If there is a presence of intention it relates only to the intent to cause a violent act which brings about the death, but not an intention to bring about the death itself.[16]" bbm sbm
Murder (United States law) - Wikipedia

 

[MyBelle]

The family’s lawyer didn’t state he had not been drinking. He stated, “Alcohol was not a factor” which doesn’t mean he hadn’t been drinking.

The fact that he wasn’t holding a drink in his hand at the time he dropped the baby doesn’t mean he hadn’t been drinking before, since they had been on the ship for several hours. MOO

We'll agree to disagree. I have no reason to believe this man was drinking. He has been described as a loving grandfather. If he had been, I seriously doubt the child's parents--particularly the police officer dad--would have left him alone with her.

JMO

 

[IceIce9]

We'll agree to disagree. I have no reason to believe this man was drinking. He has been described as a loving grandfather. If he had been, I seriously doubt the child's parents--particularly the police officer dad--would have left him alone with her.

JMO

I understand. But IMO the attorney definitely would have stated if the grandfather had not been drinking. The phrase, “Alcohol was not a factor” is commonly used to indicate while someone had been drinking it did not contribute to an accident.

Obviously the grandfather used very poor judgement in holding a toddler up, or out of, an open window. Poor judgement can be attributed to drinking alcohol sometimes.

MOO

 

[Medstudies]

BBM. Do you have a link for this because I sure don't remember police saying this.

I don't believe it is fair to generalize that the man had been drinking. Not all elderly people drink. If he was holding the baby and standing there, where exactly was his drink?

JMO

The OP prefaced the statement with IMO

 

[LietKynes]

IMO the “banging on the glass like at a hockey game” story came out later.

The story changed more than once; and was added to by the parents.
As well as what their lawyer said.

 

[LietKynes]

Parents of Chloe Wiegand stand by her grandfather after he is charged in her death | Daily Mail Online

• 
  
  
  • Parents Kimberly, 36, and Alan Wiegand, 41, plan to sue the liner for 'inexplicably' leaving a window open in a family play area
  • Family lawyer Michael Winkleman suggested Puerto Rican authorities may have 'ulterior motives' for charging Anello instead of blaming the cruise line
  • He told DailyMail.com the family understands 'that it was an accident and that [Anello] thought this was a wall of windows'
  • Winkleman added: 'What surprised me is that there was an effort to try to have this case go forward in an effort to try to help Royal Caribbean

Looks like the parents might go ahead with the lawsuit ?

I get it that S.A. was the step-grandpa; and that people should be loyal to their relatives.
But I personally couldn't forget and forgive the negligent death of my baby.
No way , no how. Impossible.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

The family’s lawyer didn’t state he had not been drinking. He stated, “Alcohol was not a factor” which doesn’t mean he hadn’t been drinking.

The fact that he wasn’t holding a drink in his hand at the time he dropped the baby doesn’t mean he hadn’t been drinking before, since they had been on the ship for several hours. MOO

The family LE officer (Chloe's stepfather, IIRC), who was also on the cruise, advised SA not to submit to a breathalyzer. If I didn't post the link on the original discussion thread, someone else did because I recall reading it and thought it seemed suspicious. Why was a family member so quick to prevent SA from submitting to a breathalyzer? There will be a paper trail for any "purchases" that Grandpa might have made after embarking the vessel

 

[IceIce9]

BBM. Do you have a link for this because I sure don't remember police saying this.

I don't believe it is fair to generalize that the man had been drinking. Not all elderly people drink. If he was holding the baby and standing there, where exactly was his drink?

JMO

I don’t think anyone said all elderly people drink. And he’s only 50 or 51, IIRC so I wouldn’t even consider grandfather to be elderly.

 

[IceIce9]

The family LE officer (Chloe's stepfather, IIRC) who was also on the cruise advised SA not to submit to a breathalyzer. If I didn't post the link on the original discussion thread, someone else did because I recall reading it and thought it seemed suspicious. Why was a family member so quick to prevent SA from submitting to a breathalyzer? There will be a paper trail for any "purchases" that Grandpa might have made after embarking the vessel

I remember that as well. Hope they bring back the original thread.

 

[LietKynes]

Really! There was great stuff there.
I just found the video of the deck tour that the WS member had posted.

eta, just noticed there is a link on the prior page for it too. Leaving just in case

Thanks for reposting, @Medstudies !

Hoping to get back the posts from the previous threads.
But this is very helpful.

Look at the height of those windows !
SA would've had to lift her to his chest height and balance her on the edge of an open window.
Stomach-curdling.

Am wondering what SA's behavior was leading up to the event and immediately after.

When he put her on the window sill, did he not only just 'rock her back and forth', or did he "dangle" her -- as a crew member initially said that he'd observed ?
"Dangling" is highly suspicious.
Also it'd show he knew darn well that window was open.

 

[Medstudies]

I think the reference was to every thread is about depraved people. I don't believe this grandfather is depraved or even close to it.

JMO

Then perhaps you should quote better.

I said: “I hate to say it , but nothing would surprise me”. ...(Because of all the threads here of depraved people who commit crimes for money or for no reason.)

I did not say “oh yes!!! He is depraved!”

iMO I thought I was pretty clear.

Besides: there’s no WS tool to write between the lines.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I alerted on one of the posts wondering about the previous thread and asked for it to be re-instated so we will have access to our research and discussion. Here’s hoping.

Thank you. There was a wealth of research, media links, and meaningful discussion on the original thread. I hope it can be restored and merged with the new thread.

 

[LietKynes]

The family LE officer (Chloe's stepfather, IIRC) who was also on the cruise advised SA not to submit to a breathalyzer. If I didn't post the link on the original discussion thread, someone else did because I recall reading it and thought it seemed suspicious. Why was a family member so quick to prevent SA from submitting to a breathalyzer? There will be a paper trail for any "purchases" that Grandpa might have made after embarking the vessel

LBM
Ita .
That same lawyer (Michael Winkleman ?) also insisted G-pa was not drinking at all that day and had never been a drinker.
Well alrighty then.

 

[LietKynes]

I understand. But IMO the attorney definitely would have stated if the grandfather had not been drinking. The phrase, “Alcohol was not a factor” is commonly used to indicate while someone had been drinking it did not contribute to an accident.

Obviously the grandfather used very poor judgement in holding a toddler up, or out of, an open window. Poor judgement can be attributed to drinking alcohol sometimes.

MOO

LBM

It certainly can be.
The video as well as the spending habits will show what S.A. did prior to the death.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

...When he put her on the window sill, did he not only just 'rock her back and forth', or did he "dangle" her -- as a crew member initially said that he'd observed ?
"Dangling" is highly suspicious.
Also it'd show he knew darn well that window was open.

I don't need to see the aftermath of the fall on video, but I am certainly interested in watching Grandpa's interaction with Chloe in the moments leading up to the tragic fall. There will be onboard surveillance video in the vicinity of the windows, exterior ship video, as well as port surveillance video on the dock in San Juan. I believe there is security video of the entire incident from different angles, both on and off the ship.

 

[LietKynes]

Hoping the cruise line will show the video of what was happening prior to the negligent death.
One of the first articles way back said the mom was immediately at Chloe's side after she was dropped -- how did she get 11 stories down to the boardwalk so soon ?
And what were all three of them doing prior to the incident ?
Were the parents drinking and let S.A. have full responsibility of Chloe ?

And as far as Chloe being S.A.'s best friend-- there are very few FB photos of the two of them together.
More pics of Chloe's older brother (from Chloe's dad's first marriage) and S.A.
And the obituary for Chloe said she was "... talkative, and liked to put on makeup".
But at her age she shouldn't have been old enough yet.

The obit. was made public and so were the GMA interviews.
No emotion, just blaming the RCC cruise line with the false assertion that the windows were in a children's play area and low enough for a child to fall through.
The parents know this wasn't true.
And so does the lawyer, Michael Winkleman.

So many strange oddities and inconsistencies.
Imo.

 

[MyBelle]

The family LE officer (Chloe's stepfather, IIRC), who was also on the cruise, advised SA not to submit to a breathalyzer. If I didn't post the link on the original discussion thread, someone else did because I recall reading it and thought it seemed suspicious. Why was a family member so quick to prevent SA from submitting to a breathalyzer? There will be a paper trail for any "purchases" that Grandpa might have made after embarking the vessel

Chloe's father is a police officer. I think all police officers and attorneys would advise family and friends to not voluntarily take a breathalyzer.

JMO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

LBM
Ita .
That same lawyer (Michael Winkleman ?) also insisted G-pa was not drinking at all that day and had never been a drinker.
Well alrighty then.

The attorney had never met SA or any other family member, so how did he know whether or not Grandpa had been drinking or wasn't a drinker? IIRC, during a media interview, the attorney was not asked about alcohol/drinking - he volunteered it. Why the need to get that out right away? And, why did the LE family member advise SA not to take a breathalizer?

 

[MyBelle]

No. Seems bolded Involuntary Manslaughter is closest to NegHomicide imo.
"In the United States, the law regarding murder varies by jurisdiction. In most US jurisdictions there is a hierarchy of acts, known collectively as homicide, of which first degree murder and felony murder are the most serious, followed by second degree murder, followed by voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter which are not as serious, and ending finally in justifiable homicide, which is not a crime. However, because there are at least 52 relevant jurisdictions, each with its own criminal code, this is a considerable simplification."
"...States have adopted several different schemes for classifying murders by degree. The most common separates murder into two degrees (first and second degree murder), and treats voluntary and involuntary manslaughter as separate crimes that do not constitute murder.[12]
First-degree murder
Any intentional murder that is willful and premeditated with malice aforethought. Felony murder, a charge that may be filed against a defendant who is involved in a dangerous crime where a death results from the crime,[12] is typically first-degree.[13]
Second-degree murder
Any intentional murder with malice aforethought, but is not premeditated or planned in advance.[14]
Voluntary manslaughter
Sometimes called a crime of passion murder, is any intentional killing that involves no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed". Both this and second-degree murder are committed on the spot under a spur-of-the-moment choice, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second-degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be mitigated to voluntary manslaughter.[15]
Involuntary manslaughter
A killing that stems from a lack of intention to cause death but involving an intentional or negligent act leading to death. A drunk driving–related death is typically involuntary manslaughter (see also vehicular homicide, causing death by dangerous driving, gross negligence manslaughter and causing death by criminal negligence for international equivalents). Note that the "unintentional" element here refers to the lack of intent to bring about the death. All three crimes above feature an intent to kill, whereas involuntary manslaughter is "unintentional", because the killer did not intend for a death to result from their intentional actions. If there is a presence of intention it relates only to the intent to cause a violent act which brings about the death, but not an intention to bring about the death itself.[16]" bbm sbm
Murder (United States law) - Wikipedia

That's in the U.S. This case is in Puerto Rico and I'm not familiar with their laws or how their justice system works. In the English language, murder is a synonym for homicide. By definition, it is death caused by another person. I'd like to know what Puerto Rico's definition of the charge means and what is the penalty.

Spanish is the official language of Puerto Rico and I'm assuming the trial will be in Spanish.

JMO